CRK vs. Customs

In the end it is the market that determines what a production knife is worth. I would bet that most Sebenzas are sold at or near full price, and CRK is always backlogged to some extent so that would tell me that the market as a whole has determined the worth of a Sebenza to be somewhere above a $300 asking price. And this has been true for years so I guess Sebenzas must be worth what many hundreds of customers are paying! And don't tell me that they are all victims of the "hype"; if people drop $300 on a knife primarily due to the hype than they are not very intelligent, or have more money than sense, or just maybe there is something to the hype afterall.

And too many of you use the term "custom" as any product that is made by a knifemaker that will make a knife to order. Just because you buy a Tom Mayo knife does not make it a custom, unless it was spec'd by the initial purchase before it was made. When you purchase a Tom Mayo from Knifeart, or from Tom's website of inventory knives does that make them cutoms? Let's see, I can order a Sebbie with limited choices of blade material, grind, polish, and decoration. But no one calls a Sebbie a custom. Why is that?

So are we really comparing a Sebbie to "handmade" knives which are not necessarily customs? Sebbie blades are hand ground, polished, and handfitted. But then again they are not handmade. Why is that?

I think the point I am trying to make is that I perceive that Sebenzas fill a needed niche in the marketplace. They are unquestionably a high quality, precision instrument made by a small production house with the highest standards of craftsmanship and customer service. They are priced at the high end of production knives, but then people continue to demand the product year after year and pay the prices, so the evidence is that they are not overpriced. My main point, though, is that they do this at production volumes that far exceed the handmade knifemakers, day in and day out, and so enable a much larger audience to experience a supremely high quality knife at a fair price. The small knifemakers mentioned in previous posts may indeed make knives to even higher standards of "feel", customization, and value, and more power to those of you who are astute enough to find these makers and buy their products! But don't take away from what Chris Reeve has achieved on a production basis, and opened so many of our eyes to what real quality and ultimate value are all about!
 
jki, the debate over the definition of the term "custom knife" vs. "hand made", etc. is just one of those things that wont ever die. The term "custom" is an accept description of hand made knives in most cases. Excellent insight into the marketplace as well, 50 million Elvis Fans can’t be wrong!
 
Actually, the sebbie is only a $175 to me, because I wouldn't ever pay more for it. After all, something is worth only as much as you are willing to pay for it.
I have nothing against the sebbie. It's a good knife, but for what you get, i feel it is over priced. You get a production knife that is 2 slabs of titanium and a blade. For me, a sebbie will never have the same look, feel, and mystique of a custom. Of course the fit and finish is good, it comes off a machine that does nothing but make those parts. A custom has the makers little touches and sometimes his blood put into every knife. For me, value has a lot more to do then the materials in the knife and the fit/finish. A sebbie doesn't give me that. Nothing agaist production knives, but if I'm going to lay down $345 (or more for the decorated or wood sebbies) for a knife, then I am going to buy a custom and get exactly what I want. I can get the handles materials I want, blade shapes I want, etc... ask CRK to make you a wharncliffe sebbie with carbon fiber scales and bolsters. They are an outstanding knife, but for the prices they bring, go custom.

JR
 
Originally posted by Jeremy Reynolds
but if I'm going to lay down $345 (or more for the decorated or wood sebbies) for a knife, then I am going to buy a custom and get exactly what I want. JR

Sure, but wouldn't you be a little diasappointed to find an uneven grind, or a backspacer that doesn't sit quite flush, or a loosey goosey lock? Not that that happens all that often, but it does happen.

I do agree with you, as at 300 bucks my Obenauf 2 blows any Seb out of the water. In my mind, it's probably the best fit and finish of any production or custom I've ever had. Yet the question isn't really if a Sebenza is worth the coin or not, like you said, it's only worth what you're willing to pay.

The point is, (or maybe it's only my point anyway...:D ) that saying all custom knives have better fit and finish than a Sebenza is simply not a true statement. My own personal experience tells me that.

Not a slam, not a damning statement as I posted before. You can get what you want, but as I've seen, it's not always 100% how you want it. In the end, the beauty part is that there are so many great makers out there that it's not that hard to find real winners.

Take it all with a grain (or a handful) of salt as "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong..."

Firebat
 
I have just deleted a very long tirade against all the people who complain about how expensive the Sebenza is and then tell us they would rather buy a xxxxxx. Fine........buy the xxxxx....and let us all get on with our lives. I have NO problem with you not wanting to spend $300 on a knife. You can do what you want with YOUR money. But dont whine about it............OK!!??

I think the Sebenza is a bargain. :p
 
Tom

Thanks for the unwanted crying tirade. No one was whining about anything. I have no problem spending over $300 on a knife. I have done it before and will do it again. My Carson M4 is my daily carry. I simply stated the Sebenza is overpriced. Period. For me, that is a simple fact. For others, it is a great knife at that price or any price point.

Now, the fit/finish on customs. I totally understand that screw ups happen. Custom makers are human and at times, some things may slip by. However, I only deal with makers with great reputations that I can trust. Makers that will drop what they are doing to fix a problem if it slipped by them. They will fix or replace the kinfe. I have owned knives by JW Smith, Kit Carson, Darrel Ralph, Rob Simonich, and the list goes on and on. I will match any of them with the sebenza in terms of fit and finish. In the folders I have owned, I will match any of them in smoothness. The JW Smiths would make the Sebbies action feel dirty and gritty.

This thread is about buying the CRK or going ahead and going custom. For me, if I am already dedicated to spending a large chunk of money, I am going to buy custom. It is a better value and a better investment...

Like was stated earlier, sebbies can be had much cheaper on the secondary market. That is good if you want a second hand sebbie. However, like Les R says, if you lose money on a custom, it is your own fault. I would prefer to get a custom from a well established maker. Just a personal preference.

JR
 
Originally posted by JTurner
But come on Jeremy -- calling a Sebenza a $175 knife, oh man -- it blows away anything at that price.

I agree. The Sebbie is an outstanding knife at that price point. At $345 it is totally overpriced. You get 2 slabs of sand blasted titanium and a blade. I have nothing against the knife. Great knife, terrible price. People are willing to pay that silly price, so CRK is being smart and keeping it high. I would too. Good business sense. If people are willing to pay double, then charge it. It still doesn't stop it from being an overpriced knife. Plain and simple.

JR
 
Thanks, Tom, for bringing in another handmade knifemaker's perspective on the Sebenza. "I think the Sebenza is a bargain." From someone who is known for making superb handmade integral locks, your statement carries a lot of weight in my opionion, as does Ron Lake's. Must be something there!

I disagree strongly with the view that Sebenzas are being sold at almost twice what they are worth because that is what the market will bear. Though not by direct implication, such a view to me is an oblique argument that somehow CRK is taking advantage of their customers by charging almost obscene prices!

Some of us here have found knives better suited to their sense of aesthetics, performance, or value in going with the knives from custom makers rather than purchasing a Sebenza. As I posted before, more power to you. But don't denigrate CRK for the price of their products!

There are very significant differences in the cost structures between a production house and a sole proprietor's operation. Chris Reeve has to pay salaries, benefits, insurance, taxes, and other overhead related to running an operation with employees. This overhead adds significantly to the final cost of the product. In exchange, the additional manpower and resources allow CRK to produce a higher volume of product than a 1-man operation. Chris Reeve also invests in the machinery that allows him to produce product to the highest tolerances in the industry; custom or production: +/- 0.0002" These tolerances are held day in and day out. That is not to say that a knife produced by a handmaker is not smoother out of the box; there is no substitute for hours spent on each knife smoothing and handfitting the action. But it does yield a product that is consistently excellent knife to knife, day to day, year to year.

And what price do you put on an activity like Chris working with Crucible Steel for a year in the development of S30V to advance the state-of-the-art in stainless, to the benefit of the industry as a whole?

In the end I think we all agree that we all have choices. And it is our individual sense of value that leads us to exchange dollars for hardware. I guess I just don't understand the need or desire to constantly portray CRK as being some kind of bad guy because they are successful in what they do. We vote with our wallets.
 
I have a few customs that are both less expensive than a Sebenza (I own two Sebs), and equally well built, strong, and useful tools. Significantly, they are all <i>fixed blades</i>.

I've been to a number of custom shows. I've seen some really beautiful custom folders only a rare few of which have been as tough over all as a Sebenza, not to mention as well fitted, as smooth or smoother, etc. Without exception, all of those folders (the as-tough or tougher) were more expensive than a Seb by 25% at a minimum, and typically by much more. About the only thing I've ever seen in a custom folder at or below the retail price of a Seb that was "better" in some quantifiable way might be the "character" of the knife, or the ergonomics of the handle.
 
I am posting again.
Chris Reeve is a friend of mine. We started making knives at about the same time. He took it a little more seriously than I, and made a real business out of it. He has told me he HARDLY makes a profit on the Sebenzas. These are words out of his own lips........not a third hand heard it from my cousin story. He makes 20 per day and is MONTHS behind in the demand. I am tired of people getting on here and telling everyone else how much someone's product should cost or what it is worth. I am NOT aiming this post at Jeremy or anyone else, but I have been seeing this exact same thing posted for years and I am truely sick of it. What you are saying is that 1) The maker is charging TOO MUCH 2) All the people buying it are suckers for paying SO MUCH 3)There are much better products out there for cheaper.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, whoever you are....
Just please dont try to cram it down our throats........OK????

:) :) :)
 
As past and current threads, as to the cost of a CRK Sebenza or if a certain mass of knife knuts believe the Sebenza measures up to customs, fall to the way side. . .I can safely assure you that there will be 10+ threads of the same subject(s) this year !

Why ? Hell. . .I don't know but it's inevitable ! :confused:

And it doesn't matter what you or I think the cost should be or if we think (or don't think) the Sebenza measures up to customs. . .

Simply, CRK will continue to make and sell the Sebenza ! And, at the price that's listed by all of the dealers ! And CRK will remain behind in their production schedule !

Why ? Hell. . .they're fantastic knives ! :D

And we, as knife knuts, have a wide variety of knife tastes ! Thank God !

Want a Sebenza ~ get one.

Don't want a Sebenza ~ don't get one.

You can substitute the word "Sebenza" with any production or custom knife name or brand. . .and end up with the same result. You either do or don't get one. ;)

Edit to add:

Hmmmmmmmm. . .why do you think that we all own more than one knife ? Man, this is an expensive hobby ~ cheap knife or not ! :D
 
Originally posted by jki
Thanks, Tom, for bringing in another handmade knifemaker's perspective on the Sebenza. "I think the Sebenza is a bargain." From someone who is known for making superb handmade integral locks, your statement carries a lot of weight in my opionion, as does Ron Lake's. Must be something there!...We vote with our wallets.


I was also impressed with Ron Lake's comments last year in Blade Magazine. Sal Glesser has said that if he (meaning Spyderco) could make the Sebenza for the same money he would. Ed Fowler recently described the Sebenza as "an honest knife".

A lot of people seem to enjoy spending their time on these forums carefully badmouthing Chris Reeve’s products. Tom has stripped away all the polite bullshit, as usual, like it or not.

I respect Tom’s opinion, and those of the gentlemen mentioned above, because they have proven their honesty, integrity and talent for many years. So have Chris Reeve, his wife Anne, and the skilled craftsmen who produce his line.
 
I wonder why it is that Chris Reeve is so often a target in the forums, either directly or by strong implication? Certainly there are those who can't see ever spending that much money on a production knife: "Is the Sebenza really almost 3 times "better" than my 710?"
And there are those in this thread who do spend the money and have found something that they find has higher value than a Sebenza among the custom makers.
But no one seems to find any significant faults with the Sebenza, other than they find something smoother, more to their liking aesthetically, or with the customer's complete choice of material selection. All good reasons NOT to choose a Sebenza and to go the custom route, but none are any reason to, once again, put down the Sebbie camp.
My only guess is that it must be jealousy of some sort. The Sebenza is at the top of the production heap in terms of consistent quality, precision, ability to custom-configure to a limited extent from an options menu, and the absolute highest level of customer service in the business, bar none. No other production house offers anywhere near this combination of virtues. In my view they are closer to a custom knifemaker in these terms than they are as a production house.
So when you are at the top of your game, then you are the target. I guess Chris should find it a complement, then, that his products are so often compared, put down, justified, and defended. It just means that CRK is the standard bearer for production knives....
 
Those of us out there producing and selling stuff know that "the market" is a most fickle and intelligent beast. A market where the producer is enjoying large profit margins is a temporary thing--it will NOT last over the long term (unless there is a monopoly).

A producer strives to minimize a product's cost in the hope that it is lower than the selling price--which is DETERMINED BY THE MARKET. Does that seem backwards? While the producer sets the price, the market sets the quantity--if the price is too high, nothing gets sold! Price too low--the producer is overloaded with orders and develops a backlog, which can backlash and kill future sales.

Let's not forget all the other producers out there, always looking for new opportunities. If they see a product that has a high profit margin, they consider it an opportunity to move in--accept a lower profit margin and rake in all the additional sales that the high profit producer is leaving "on the table".

What's the best long-term survival strategy? Reinvest as much as possible into improving the product and the production process. Hold price constant or lower it if possible. NEVER just sit back and be complacent, the other guys would like to eat your lunch.

OK, so there's the bare-bones economics of the situation. If you consider Chris Reeve's operation, he's doing a great job of holding his own in a tough business. I think his major talent is that he has taken his knifemaking skill and made it work in a production environment--being able to turn out in quantity a product that maintains handmade quality standards. All the proof necessary about the fairness of his pricing is the waiting period to get any Reeve knife, despite his continuing efforts to increase his capacity.

For those who read this far, the conclusion is that Chris Reeve is possibly an even better business manager than he is a knifemaker. Those who feel his pricing is too high are in the (rather vocal) minority. As usual, the "silent majority" is completely satisifed with their Sebenzas, and thus remains...silent.
 
I really thought that I might be done buying knives as I'm very content. But somehow you've all got me thinking of a Sebenza, TNT and an EDC. Damn you all to hell!
 
Tom,

No one was on this thread cramming anything down someone's throat. The sebbie is an outstanding knife. IMHO, at the price point, customs have a better value overall. You can see sebbies on the net for $250 when they sell for $350 from CRK. Again, with customs, it's your fault if you lose money. The sebenza is an excellent knife and I have nothing against the people who use them. I have not badmouted Chris Reeve, I don't even know him. If he can sell his product at this price point and be backlogged, then why should he lower the price? I don't blame him for selling it at this price point. For most of us, $300+ is a big chunk of change to toss on the table for a pocket a knife. I feel at that price point, I can go custom and get the knife taylored to what I want.
Also on the topic of Chris and Anne... I have heard nothing but the highest praise about them and their customer service. They offer customer service that is above and beyond what many people can. I am not their accountant and I don't see their books to know what kind of profit they make. Being a small operation, they can't keep the costs as low as some of the bigger production houses and that is understandable. However, I simply don't feel that I am getting the best bang for my dollar with the sebbie. I do my research before I buy any knives, and I feel my dollar is better spent on customs at that price point. It is a better value for me. That doesn't make the sebbie a bad knife or CRK a bad company, it just makes it not for me. Simple as that.

JR
 
Jeremy, your point of view is your point of view. Nothing wrong with that. It's your money, spend it on what you want. I like Sebenzas. Got a couple. I think they're worth the money...YMMV (so, no, they're not overpriced "plain and simple"-it's a matter of opinion, which obviously varies wildly around here). I've got a pair of custom folders that I like better. They cost more. They don't do anything a Sebenza won't. They're no better made fit and finish-wise than a Sebenza (or worse). Does that mean they were overpriced? Not to me. No more than the Sebenza, which won't do anything my BM 710 can't do, even though it cost more, is overpriced, IMO.
If noone voiced an opinion, there wouldn't be much of anything to read, or learn on this site. It's when you apply your opinions to other people, and try to tell them what's better for them, that you step off solid ground (but reading your replies, I notice you didn't do that-it just comes across that way. You know we're all going to read between the lines, though:p).

squid meat..I don't think you are going to find a knife with better fit/finish than a Sebenza. Just don't see how it's possible. There are other designs out there that I like alot better though. Don't know what kind of knife you're looking for, so I have no(EDC) idea how you would (EDC) like a custom (EDC) compared to a Sebenza, and (EDC) can't think of one to(EDC) recommend at the mo(EDC)ment. I really draw a blank when it comes to every-day-carry knives. Sorry.
 
Well, mostly.





Re: No production is worth list price

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JTurner
But come on Jeremy -- calling a Sebenza a $175 knife, oh man -- it blows away anything at that price.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree. The Sebbie is an outstanding knife at that price point. At $345 it is totally overpriced. You get 2 slabs of sand blasted titanium and a blade


Mr Jr. I strongly suggest that you make a simple framelock out of two slabs of titanium and a hunk of BG 42. You will be on the other side of this argument faster than you can say boo. Chris uses an $80,000 CNC mill to make those things on. Any idea what the payments are on a piece of equipment like that. BG 42 costs $20 a lb and Ti 6/4 costs $50 a lb. You have to use carbide endmills to cut titanium. The cheap ones are $30 each and dont last long. His tooling bill alone would finance two or three people who post here. I make them one at a time with some funky tools in my garage. If I get one a day done Im a happy camper. Your continuing statement that it is overprices flies in the face of reason. If it was, as Steve as said above, it wouldnt sell, he would go broke, and there would be a nice expensive CNC mill for sale cheap.
 
Tom, you continue to be a breath of fresh air. You should be named the Sebenza Bashing Thread Moderator. There are enough of these threads to warrant one...
 
Tom,
Yes, I know there is more to a folder then that. The sebbie is a production knife. I have yet to find a non-limited manual action production knife that justifed $350 price tags. I admit it, many people believe the knife is worth that much and pay that. For me, it is not worth near that much, so I don't buy it. Squid asked for opinions, and that is exactly what I gave. The sebbie is a great knife and should never fail you if properly maintained. However, at that price point, there are many better ways to go IMHO. I would rather save up another $25-50 and pick up custom from JW Smith, DDR, or Kit Carson. Cheaper then the sebbie you still have guys like Alan Folts and Mike Obenauf. If you like the sebbie, and will never have to sell it, go for it. It should last longer then you. However, the minute is arrives in your hands it automaticly drops in value for the secondary market. For that much money, I can't take that chance.

JR
 
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