CRKT Point Guard

Cliff Stamp · Apr 25, 2005

I did a trial run on 3/8" hemp with the point guard, 20 degree settings on the medium spyderco rods. Rope was sliced on a two inch push, unsupported, no cutting board.

The Point Guard made the first 64 cuts with strong aggression, biting in along the cut. On the last 64 cuts, significantly more force had to be applied, the blade was slipping and it was becoming difficult to make clean cuts.

After the final cuts, the knife could no longer do fine cutting, could not even slice stiff paper. The force required to cut the final few pieces hemp was about double that of average (the cutting was being done on a scale).

So yes on first pass there is no surprise that the steel is fairly low end, but note even here with an adjusted edge bevel to raise cutting performance and a decently aggressive edge finish, 64 cuts on hemp rope are still very efficient.

Sharpening took 10 passes per side on CrO to return the edge to a scratchy shaving sharpness, of course there is a lot of deformation in the blunting so the edge while restored in this manner only has a fraction of the edge retention of the origional edge.

-Clifff

Carl64 · Apr 25, 2005

Cliff Stamp said:
The Point Guard made the first 64 cuts with strong aggression, biting in along the cut. On the last 64 cuts, significantly more force had to be applied, the blade was slipping and it was becoming difficult to make clean cuts.
...
-Clifff

I have to say I am surprised that it did so well. I kind of expected it to almost not work at all.

Cliff Stamp · Apr 26, 2005

The steel, 420 has a bad rep, mainly because it is used in United Cutlery's fantsy line and most really low end stainless. At its bottom level, with the lowest carbon it is really soft. I have seen large bowies with sabre grinds and thick edges just ripple chopping woods with huge quarter sized dents.

At its upper level, when people start calling it 420HC, the hardness can rise up to 54-58 HRC depending on the carbon content and the heat treating. At its maximum level then it should even start to approach 440C and the other high carbon steels. So basically it is an undefined quantity unless you can get a hard line from the manufacturer on carbon content and hardness.

Even low end steels though will cut well if you shape them with a suitable geometry and match the finish to the cutting. With this finish, only 64 cuts before significant slipping and a ~10 lbs increase in force is rather really low end, you can easily get performance many times over this with better steels.

But yes, it isn't that bad that you cut a piece of rope and sharpen it. For most people this knife will easily last far more than a day without sharpening, just note in general the amounts of cardboard, ropes and wood cut in the above and think about how much of this would actually be cut in a day unless you are actually just looking for something to cut.

I use this heavily as a paring knife in the kitchen, and I had it left with the medium finish from the rope cutting and what a difference it made. The knife went from what I would rank as very high to fairly low in terms of peeling potatoes and such due to the more aggressive finish, works better on breads and such now though.

-Cliff

Cliff Stamp · May 10, 2005

As a lock update, while initially it held up fine under light spine whacks, hitting the Point Guard hard enough to dent the corner of a piece of birch about 1 mm, the lock readily collapses. With harder impacts, still just wrist action through an angle of 90 degrees, the LAWKS system collapses and the lock disengages. The system doesn't break though, you can haul it back up. Under torques it is trivial to disengage with wrist effort, the LAWKS system makes this near impossible however.

-Cliff

Carl64 · May 10, 2005

Does the LAWKS washer thing bend, or just get pushed out of the way?

Cliff Stamp · May 10, 2005

It gets smashed out of the way, it stays engaged, the liner just comes over and bends the LAWKs out of the way. It is then jammed and you have to pull the blade back open before you can retract the LAWKs. I need a different camera, you can't see details on 2x zoom.

-Cliff

kgriggs8 · May 10, 2005

My LAWKs lock always seemed to disengage when I was using it hard. As my hand moved around, it would flip that poorly positioned LAWK out of bettery. I soon realized that it was a total waste of time to engage the LAWKs because it would probably unlock itself in hard use.

The Point Gaurd that I ownd was so poor that it almost made me never buy another CRKT knife again. I got a deal on a M-16-13 for $25 and some of my respect that was lost is back. For the money, the M-16 is a decent knife. I carry it at work now and I am pleased with it.

I would just dump the Point Gaurd, it is not worth the time. One of the least imprssive knives I have ever owned. It give Pat Crawford a bad name. In fact, because of this knife, I will probably never buy a Pat Crawford knife in the future. I know he didn't personally make the knife but he puts his name on the pig and takes the cash. I can't respect someone that doesn't have enough respect for their own name not to sell out. Shame on you Pat Crawford! In a way, I feel I got burned not only by CRKT but also Pat Crawford.

Cliff Stamp · May 11, 2005

kgriggs8 said:
As my hand moved around, it would flip that poorly positioned LAWK ...

There is that, the LAWKs move with little force, so your grip or the cutting media could easily release it.

The Point Gaurd that I ownd was so poor ...

In what ways?

-Cliff

Lee48 · May 11, 2005

I have had a Desert Cruiser (AUS 8?) for couple of months. I was pretty impressed with the design and smoothness of the knife when I first got it--less so with the desert tan color and the shallow serrations. It wasn't particularly sharp out of the box and I've never been able to get it much sharper. After reading the observation about the grind being uneven on the Point Guard, I looked closely at the DC. Sure enough, it's not even close to being evenly ground.

I think I'll try to even it out and see if it will take an decent edge. Seems like a lot of work to make a knife useful that should have been that way to begin with. While the DC wasn't particularly expensive, there are any number of Spydercos available for the same price or less.

Cliff Stamp · May 11, 2005

Lee48 said:
Seems like a lot of work to make a knife useful that should have been that way to begin with.

This is going to turn a *lot* of people off, NIB edges should be sharp, even and easy to sharpen. The problem is Spyderco is setting a very high standard in all of these aspects, even on their lower priced knives, so you have to at least match them or simply you are falling short.

I have a belt sander and it takes a couple of minutes to even out an edge. Still it isn't pleasing to me to take a NIB knife and need to slag off metal off on side of the bevel to allow even sharpening, nor have it dull NIB. You would expect it to be able to do its primary function straight away.

-Cliff

kgriggs8 · May 11, 2005

Cliff,
You asked in what ways was my CRKT Point gaurd poor quality? Well, it actually fell apart in my hand after only a few weeks of light carry and use. The handle slab compleatly came off when I pulled it out of my pocket and some of the screws were lost! I have had loose screws before but I have never seen all of them come compleatly off at one time. Some of the screws were loose from the start but I kept tightening them. It seemed that all the screws were constantly working loose.

The edge was not dull from the factory but it was not very sharp either. The steel was poor. It would not hold an edge even under the light cutting I asked it to do. It dulled quick and liked to stay that way. I sent it back after the slab feel off and returned it to the dealer that I bought it from after I got a new one. He was a gunshow seller so I knew I had to wait a few weeks anyway so I decide to be a nice guy and tell him the story and give him the new one instead of the one the fell apart. He gave me a deal on a Benchmade Mini Darkstar 885SBT that I carried for about 3 years everyday. It was a good knife but now that I have discovered Spyderco, I don't have much use for Benchmades. My only complant with Spyderco is that they don't offer many Liner lock or frame lock knives. Most of there knives are the retarded back lock type. The back lock needs to die a slow painfull death. As much as I hate the back lock, I will put up with it because the other things Spyderco has going for it.

Carl64 · May 11, 2005

kgriggs8 said:
My only complant with Spyderco is that they don't offer many Liner lock or frame lock knives. Most of there knives are the retarded back lock type. The back lock needs to die a slow painfull death.

I like the lockback/backlock/midlock design just fine, especially with the dent. I like how they stay closed, I like unlocking them, I like opening them, and it is much better for a slim design. A proper liner lock has to be thicker than a lockback design applied to the same blade.

I am not crazy about frame locks. I like a good liner lock. I really hate "open frame" linerlocks where the edge is exposed to various pocket items.

Furthermore, I think (correct me if I am wrong folks) that both Cliff and Spyderco have found that linerlocks are not routinely safer than lockbacks in all or even most ways.

Carl64 · May 11, 2005

kgriggs8 said:
In fact, because of this knife, I will probably never buy a Pat Crawford knife in the future. I know he didn't personally make the knife but he puts his name on the pig and takes the cash.

I don't know what his standards were, at what point he stamped an OK on it, etc, but I would not assume it is Crawford's fault at all. I have seen some VERY nice CRKT models that I could not pick out any flaws on first site. The m18 and m1 both together well and I did not had any screw problems during the short time they were used. I can easily see how it is possible that someone would look at several CRKT models and think they would make a good knife at a fair price.

Too bad it sounds like the Point Guard is not one of those.

GarageBoy · May 11, 2005

Mutt had a M1 with a liner that wouldn't engage.
Go handle a crawford, they are VERY well made

Chris "Anagarika" · May 12, 2005

I only have one CRKT Large Point Guard, and as per my old review, it performed very well, passed all spine whack test and other requirement as I learnt from Joe Talmadges FAQ page.

As of the edge, it came sharp, though by some more honing and stropping I could make it sharper. However, originally by itself, it was the best apple peeler and cutter I ever had (among my other collections at that time: balisongs).

As I read this thread, I tested again the spine whack by hitting (without engaging the LAWKS) hard the spine to hard surface and it didnt budge in anyway. However, I agree that the LAWKS can be disengaged too easily, but since the original Crawford Point Guard has no LAWKS and my own testing of spine whack always good, I have confident on this knife.

I need also to add that the decision to purchase this knife through 1sks.com came after inspecting a smaller version at local shop which showed very strong and solid built. So I own one solid knife and inspected another smaller version also being solid. Thats so far my experience with CRKT. Will I buy again? Possibly, but I will inspect first (QC issues might cause a bad one slipped out) or get a reputable store to inspect prior to delivery. I believe my specific request during this purchase was listened by Spark and inspection done prior to shipping cause both knives (another one was KFF Pro small version) came in flawless condition, as far as production knife quality is used as standard.

Cliff Stamp · May 12, 2005

kgriggs8 said:
Well, it actually fell apart in my hand after only a few weeks of light carry and use. The handle slab compleatly came off when I pulled it out of my pocket and some of the screws were lost! I have had loose screws before but I have never seen all of them come compleatly off at one time. Some of the screws were loose from the start but I kept tightening them. It seemed that all the screws were constantly working loose.

Yeah, that is annoying, I have had to loctite screws down on other knives, and have lost them when they popped out when not expected.

The edge was not dull from the factory but it was not very sharp either.

There is really no excuse for this, it is a knife, it can't cut well if it is dulled and it should be at optimal performance when you buy it.

The steel was poor. It would not hold an edge even under the light cutting I asked it to do. It dulled quick and liked to stay that way.

It is a lot softer than the ATS-34 class steels so compared to them it will not fare well indeed.

The back lock needs to die a slow painfull death.

While it is harder to open and close one handed, it is a lot more secure under torques and impacts than liner locks.

Chris "Anagarika" said:
I tested again the spine whack ...

One of the main issues with the liner lock and locks of its type isn't the inherent performance when perfectly optimal, but the difficulty in doing so. While not all linears fail such impacts readily, some do so very lightly, even a pop against the back of the palm. For a reader perusing such posts you would want to look at them in a statistical sense and then choose according as as QC measure. Of course always check the security of locks on a regular basis.

-Cliff

uitlander · May 13, 2005

I have had a small Point Guard, with Aus-8, for probably four-five years now and found it a great comfortable and sturdy cutter to use and carry. Survived many drops etc. Did lose one screw from scales recently but CRKT were quick to send new ones no questions asked. Found it a great little knife, easy to sharpen (Lansky) and use, never felt uncomfortable using it safetywise... all that said it was recently retired as so many openings has rendered linerlock worn and unreliable. Have ancient ancient lockbacks that are still rock solid. I got my$35 use out of PointGuard and then some, but will not go for any more liner locks as experience and reading seems to say this system unavoidably wears out sooner than others. Yes I expect my cars to last forever too.
Have other CKRT models and thought them all reliable and worth the modest cost.

Chris "Anagarika" · May 20, 2005

Cliff Stamp said:
One of the main issues with the liner lock and locks of its type isn't the inherent performance when perfectly optimal, but the difficulty in doing so. While not all linears fail such impacts readily, some do so very lightly, even a pop against the back of the palm. For a reader perusing such posts you would want to look at them in a statistical sense and then choose according as as QC measure. Of course always check the security of locks on a regular basis.
-Cliff

Fully agree. My point is, if you have a good one, it should last. That's why it's best to be able to inspect the knife before purchase, and if purchased online, should be from a reliable source that will check for you ..

Cliff Stamp · May 20, 2005

Chris "Anagarika" said:
it's best to be able to inspect the knife before purchase, and if purchased online, should be from a reliable source that will check for you ..

James Mattis used to do this, and would even do light spine whacks. There are a lot of people returning knives to dealers though, you would think that you could make a name for customer service by just running an inspection on knives. It would take only a fraction of the time to actually package the knife up for shipping to do a simple QC check.

-Cliff

knifetester · Jul 21, 2005

I would readily choose the Spyderco Endura over the Pointguard.
I think the LAWKS devise is highly overrated. The Spyderco lockback on an FRN model is easily strong enough, and more stable than the liner/ LAWKS.

For example, both held fine stabbing into a decently thick metal container ( Deck Sealer Can).

The Point Guard does offer decent cutting performance, at elast in the AUS6 model. Cutting Efficiency is near Endura level on thin cardboard for example.

The Endura has better edge retention, feels better in my hand, is lighter, opens faster, etc.

The Pointguard is decently comfortable, but I detest the speed holes. It is too heavy compared to the light Endura.

It does open smoothly, smoother than the Endura. As well, it is very easy to sharpen using the Sharpmaker, easily taking a smooth shaving edge.