Cryogenics... do you care?

John_0917 said:
How does the cryo treat fit into the overall blade making process? Is it done after the heat treat or something else? Also, what are the main benefits to mos. steels?
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John, cryo is performed during heat treat... after he blade is quenched and given an initial stress relief temper it is frozen in cryo to convert any retained austentite to marten sit... then back to temper to the desired RC

The benefits are both an often significant increase in both wear resistance and ductility at a specific RC
 
I'd pay a reasonable amount more to get better performance. As stated some steels will benefit, some not so much. I am looking for the best performance, grain structure and blade design ( lack of stress risers, etc.) . 52100 is an example of a steel that is made an amazing knife blade with the thermal cycling but it is worth the much better performance and cost.

I don't know how much it would cost per blade but if reasonable I'm all for it. Your set up already seems tuned to get better performing knives as it is and going the next step with LN quench seems logical.

I'm all for salt bath / bainite knives and have seen how they turn out when done well. That was the secret Camillus used in the old Cold Steel "Carbon V" blades. A simple, nothing overly special alloy that had an excellent Dan Margiani Salt bath heat. Something Cold Steel has finally gotten back to in their O-1 / Taiwan bowie knives.

Yep, if you can do it and get better performance it seems logical. That's one of the biggest reasons we want small knife maker custom knives. You can be more consistent with your heat treats, run them a bit harder, etc. That reminds me. If you are closing in on max RC you might need to back it down a point or so. In some steels it gives a point or so of hardness when the transformation happens.

Congratulations.

Joe
 
idaho said:
I deeply believe that it is very important to by honest in ones knifemaking.

You SHOULD build cryo and treat blades with that ONLY if you believe that it will make them better. Not just because it is selling point.
I see no problem in convincing customers that lets say properly HT secondary hardening steel needs no cryo, as there won't be any RA left after three cycles.

But if you work with m290, or elmax and go for high corrosion resistance - no real secondary hardening, than cryo would be beneficial and should be used.
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Idaho, I'm with you on honesty in knifemaking... for me there is no question about whether cryo is benificial... but unfortunately as I am a sole breadwinner I have to examine very closely the input vs. Output of all my forge upgrades.... will putting money into a cryo setup pay for itself or would I be better off putting my time and money into finishing my cupola to start playing with wootz...
 
I learned a lot reading this thread on cryo treating so first off thanks to everybody. I say heck yeah
 
Yo Mama said:
I learned a lot reading this thread on cryo treating so first off thanks to everybody. I say heck yeah
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+1.. I learn a fair amount and depending on the knife and what my purpose for it was then I would say yes. Now the general consumer could probably care less so take that into consideration but if you did do cryo treat then that could just be something you add as a marking point. You don't have to cryo every knife you do but as a marketing stand point, if you offer some cryo blades then you've opened up a new category to consumers.. Maybe not that many but more is still better, so in the long run I would definitely say go for it. If anything take your time building it so it doesn't break the bank
 
Thanks for all your input guys... I think i will move ahead on getting a cryo set up put together.
 
Honestly it seemed kinda gimmicky to me. Although seeing all the knifemakers' input on it is making me rethink my opinion.
 
Would I prefer a blade that has been cryo'd yes, if it hasn't been would it stop me from buying something I like no.
I don't really see it as a selling point just an extra perk.
 
In a knife blade? No. In that application it's one of those things I consider a solution in search of a problem.
 
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Infamous.blades said:
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Uhhh.. I'm no "knife doctor".. But all I am seeing is 100% + gains in Cryotreatment. So yeah.. as a consumer, if you told me it would be 100% better in wear resistance, hell yes, I would pay more for it.

I would honestly pay $100 or more if that was the case. For example if Microtech or Strider were like "with our Cryotreatment, your blade will have an additional 100% of wear resistance" I would be all... "SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!!!!"

And then.. If they were like, "we are only going to make a limited amount of these and instead of $400, it will be only be $800".. I again would be all.. "Can you get that to me on next day air??"
 
To me I would have to have two of the same blades to test the difference now what about sharpening a cryo knife is it harder/softer (why) will it take me more time to put a decent edge on it (why) does it help retain the edge (why) can it stand being battoned and more abused... Has anyone done a test of two similar blades with and without cryo I would be interested in seeing a vid myself.... I make my own blades im sure I don't put more than $20 into a knife mostly because I get the materials almost free I got enough knives Ill never even come close to wearing one out let alone the dozen I have kicking around so for me it makes no difference at all so I guess the answer is NO LOL [I was hoping the thread was about freezing your head but I guess that will be another thread]

Is their anything on doing cryo on 1095, 1060, 1050, OF ? I like these for blades they are easy to sharpen and hold an edge very well
 
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idaho said:
If you persue the best blade you will look for best solution...
For many if not most makers workable is not enough.
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Thanks but I was asking the question from the user's standpoint, not the maker's.

I guess the reason I asked is because I've never bought and used my knives in a manner in which I abused the crap out of them to the point of failure. I'm questioning if the Cryo treatment is one of those "hype" things that give a user the unreasonable perception their blade now has magical properties - akin to something as ridiculous as their Opinel can now hack down cherry trees....

I'm of the [very old] opinion that every tool was created for an intended purpose. A knife is a cutting tool and there are hundreds of versions for the hundreds of cutting tasks. How is Cryo going to make that cut better? If we are talking "better resilience" than better resilience to what? Since it's part of the HT I'm guessing overall strength and endurance......but exactly how much strength and endurance is needed cutting paper, game hide and raw or cooked meat? Now if you are talking overall bushcraft where whittling, chopping and batonning are tasks expected of that blade, that blade should already be made and rated for those tasks.....right?

I'm seeing this "advertisement" flash through my mind: "this knife can cut through a pine forest.....but this identical knife has Cryo and now in addition to pine forests, will allow you to cut down petrified forests!" Yeah, that's dumb but it reflects back to my comment how people will think it now has 'magical properties' it didn't have in its original configuration.

Even with the posted ratings supporting that Cryo is beneficial to some steels....I still kind of see it as a "gimmick" and reason for an unscrupulous company/maker to rake consumers over the coals.

I don't know...::left hand:: possibly beneficial--------------seemingly gimmicky ::right hand::
 
atavist said:
Idaho, I'm with you on honesty in knifemaking... for me there is no question about whether cryo is benificial... but unfortunately as I am a sole breadwinner I have to examine very closely the input vs. Output of all my forge upgrades.... will putting money into a cryo setup pay for itself or would I be better off putting my time and money into finishing my cupola to start playing with wootz...
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I suspect you will not be able to make the economics work out for this specialized industrial process. I've never delved too deeply into the process, but if you are looking at -300F, then you are looking at some pretty specialized equipment. Now, if you can scavenge it, buy it govt surplus, etc, then maybe. Say it costs you 1500 initially and five bucks to maintain and treat a blade. If you sell it as a $50 upgrade then you'll break even at about 45 blades. Not sure what the costs are, but safe is probably about a 10-15% surcharge.
 
I can't honestly say that I can tell the difference between my Cryo'd blades and non Cryo'd blades when I use them.Seems like hype and marketing in my eyes.It's not a deciding factor in wither or not I purchase a knife.
 
Some are way behind in cutlery readings. Emerson Case of Robeson Knives was the first to perfect a freeze treatment on stainless steel blades which allow quality hitherto unattainable, in 1950. http://www.rcknives.net/
More can be learned by simply googling cyrogenics. Buck Knives was one of the first few to move on cyrogenic treatment of their blades and a pioneer in the field. It has been around a long time and is proven. NO, sales pitch on this one. Yes, I do it on all of mine. What equipment are you looking at investing toward? All you need is a Dewar. Be careful in working with Ln2. DM
 
David Martin said:
Some are way behind in cutlery readings. Emerson Case of Robeson Knives was the first to perfect a freeze treatment on stainless steel blades which allow quality hitherto unattainable, in 1950. http://www.rcknives.net/
More can be learned by simply googling cyrogenics. Buck Knives was one of the first few to move on cyrogenic treatment of their blades and a pioneer in the field. It has been around a long time and is proven. NO, sales pitch on this one. Yes, I do it on all of mine. What equipment are you looking at investing toward? All you need is a Dewar. Be careful in working with Ln2. DM
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Well there in lies my problem. I hate stainless steel and don't buy it unless I have no alternative. Even then, I'll generally "settle" for something else that might be "lesser" - but it isn't stainless and thus, I'm happier.

moreover, I don't get cutlery mags because...well...I simply don't care to. All they are is an eye-candy filled, long and boring diatribes that embellish their favorite knife maker 'this week' - the "stories" seemingly to be little more than long-winded ads for them......
 
I have seen writings that state one of my SOG's has been cryo'd. If so, I am not impressed. However, I know that it can sometimes make a huge difference on rifle barrels. I would be willing to try it with a quality blade. If the price is right, what do I have to loose?
 
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