Cryogenics... do you care?

It is absolutely a selling point for me. Metallurgically the differences in cryo vs non-cryo treated blades are numerous. For the most highly alloyed steels it is a necessity. There are certain steels used in knives on the market that I wouldn't use without a post HT cryo treatment. It's that important.
 
druid189 said:
Thanks but I was asking the question from the user's standpoint, not the maker's.

I guess the reason I asked is because I've never bought and used my knives in a manner in which I abused the crap out of them to the point of failure. I'm questioning if the Cryo treatment is one of those "hype" things that give a user the unreasonable perception their blade now has magical properties - akin to something as ridiculous as their Opinel can now hack down cherry trees....

I'm of the [very old] opinion that every tool was created for an intended purpose. A knife is a cutting tool and there are hundreds of versions for the hundreds of cutting tasks. How is Cryo going to make that cut better? If we are talking "better resilience" than better resilience to what? Since it's part of the HT I'm guessing overall strength and endurance......but exactly how much strength and endurance is needed cutting paper, game hide and raw or cooked meat? Now if you are talking overall bushcraft where whittling, chopping and batonning are tasks expected of that blade, that blade should already be made and rated for those tasks.....right?

I'm seeing this "advertisement" flash through my mind: "this knife can cut through a pine forest.....but this identical knife has Cryo and now in addition to pine forests, will allow you to cut down petrified forests!" Yeah, that's dumb but it reflects back to my comment how people will think it now has 'magical properties' it didn't have in its original configuration.

Even with the posted ratings supporting that Cryo is beneficial to some steels....I still kind of see it as a "gimmick" and reason for an unscrupulous company/maker to rake consumers over the coals.

I don't know...::left hand:: possibly beneficial--------------seemingly gimmicky ::right hand::
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I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have not educated yourself on what cryogenic treatment does for a blade. For you to call it a gimmick is simply unfounded. Do some research. Then form an opinion.

Comments like these only hurt the community. Ironicaly enough, in stark contrast to what you state, proliferation of false information - such as your statement that cryo treatment is a gimmick - is only an excuse for manufacturers to rake consumers over the coals by providing subpar heat treat processes, therefore producing subpar blades. As David notes, these processes have been around for many years and there is a significant amount of quantitative evidence indicating that cryogenic treatment benefits blades. The questions you pose already have answers, you simply didn't bother to look for them.
David Martin said:
Some are way behind in cutlery readings. Emerson Case of Robeson Knives was the first to perfect a freeze treatment on stainless steel blades which allow quality hitherto unattainable, in 1950. http://www.rcknives.net/
More can be learned by simply googling cyrogenics. Buck Knives was one of the first few to move on cyrogenic treatment of their blades and a pioneer in the field. It has been around a long time and is proven.
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I believe INFI steel used on Busse knives is cryo treated. I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet.
 
druid189 said:
As far as the rest, I question the "need" for it and based upon only one [of many] historical references. I believe I've made that clear in the Viking Sword / Crucible Steel video...and yes....I'm from the "school of K.I.S.S." - so if you want to associate that to a 'contrived symptom definition' of "casual reduction fallacy" then so be it. "If it ain't broke......" has served me for over 35 years. I doubt anyone's 'opinion' is going to change that.
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You're the first person on here that I've seen say modern metallurgy is a gimmick and that we should go back to the dark ages. Bravo!:D I want the most advanced and most accurate HT I can afford. I don't want to spend MORE money on a guy eyeballing the color in a dark room. No thanks. THAT'S a gimmick.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it"...shouldn't you be using knapped stones then? What's with all this steel stuff? ;)
 
If you send stuff to Peters you have to request it not to be cryod.
Everything I have had so fat has been cryod and also supersteels. Between the steel and the treatment some pretty crazy things must happen to see any type of failure.
This sounds stupid but to me it is like navy seal training for steel.
 
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I would definitely go for the cryo treatment. You said it yourself, a good cryo treat can bring out the best in metals. I know that this statement may be an over exaggeration, but I hope you get what I mean.

Even with an added cost I'd rather just save up some extra $$$ and receive a superior product than not. It's worth it!
 
Wow.. I didn't realize this thread was still live... I need to check in more often....

Sorry to see that part of the conversation degenerates for a while but I appreciate ever ones feed back and opinions.
 
mete said:
First - cryo is -300 F [ I hope the - 200 F is a typo ] this is the boiling point of liquid nitrogen LN ]

Cryo does NOT refine or otherwise change the grain structure !!

Some steels benefit , some don't.

Cryo is part of the HT not an add-on done later.

Many tests on rifles have been done ,some custom rifle makers claim improvement some don't.
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I'm going to resurrect this thread because I came across an article while researching something else at work. It's an article on Cryo treatment using A2 as the subject alloy. Rigorous article. Positive results on a non-stainless alloy.

http://www.airproducts.com/~/media/...-quenching-of-steel-revisited-33005019GLB.pdf

As Mete said, it has to be done as part of the heat treatment, after the regular quench and prior to tempering, else there is little benefit. Liquid Nitrogen (-321 °F) worked as well as liquid helium (-452°F)

To now answer the original question, Custom knife? Yes, I would want cryo as part of the heat treatment.
 
Goddard -- Freeze treated.
We have proper words to describe HT/.

Sub-zero treatment - cooling to about - 100 F [ dry ice in acetone etc] This has been used for at least 60 years. Transforms RA more than just quench to room temperature.

Cryogenic treatment - cooling to Liquid Nitrogen temperature , - 300 F Transforms more RA and permits the formation of small eta carbides upon tempering !

Both require tempering after treatment ,both are done as part of the HT not an add on .
Goddard does not use the term Cryo .Does he mean cryo or something else ?
 
A friend of mine has been a custom knife maker for many years. Recently I asked him what he thought of cryo treated steels and he Firmly believed it helped.
His name is Jim Downs (from Ohio) and he has been cryo'ing his blades for years.
For many years I believed that cryo treating a blade had some minimal effect. Jim Downs has changed my opinion.
 
mete said:
Goddard -- Freeze treated.
We have proper words to describe HT/.

Sub-zero treatment - cooling to about - 100 F [ dry ice in acetone etc] This has been used for at least 60 years. Transforms RA more than just quench to room temperature.

Cryogenic treatment - cooling to Liquid Nitrogen temperature , - 300 F Transforms more RA and permits the formation of small eta carbides upon tempering !

Both require tempering after treatment ,both are done as part of the HT not an add on .
Goddard does not use the term Cryo .Does he mean cryo or something else ?
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Interesting that there are places that offer cryo treatment to already made and HT'd parts to improve wear and it has been proven to work as well. One is rifle barrels and the other is swords. I have talked to custom gun builders that have had their barrels cryo'd and they say it extends the life of the barrel by almost double. I spoke with the cryo place years ago and they told me they get tons of sword business not just gun barrels. So it seems that even if it is done after the HT process it helps. Or so they say.
 
LonnyRS said:
I believe INFI steel used on Busse knives is cryo treated. I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet.
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Busse has been using cryo since the 1980's. Whether it improves the properties of the steel I don't know, but considering that cryo is a huge part of the time it takes to HT a part, I would say that if it does not make any improvements why would anyone waste their time?



In looking at the chart below all there is, is wear resistance. So the question is, aside from wear resistance does cryo provide any other improvements to a steel, toughness? resistance to corrosion?, and increase in yield and tensile strength? It seems like the only testing done is for wear resistance. IF this is all it improves then I would say it may not be worth the extra cost. But if it does improve the other properties I mentioned, then it would be worth it. I have not seen any test date in regards to toughness, yield strength, etc. Has anyone seen data on known steels, not some irrelevant aerospace alloy that is not used in knife making?


Infamous.blades said:
m78a3k.jpg
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Can't say about knife steels but My employer makes Aircraft gears ( Carburized 9310 steel or Pyroware53) and a common heat treatment includes a sub-zero step but it is normally -110° to -140° F (Carburize anneal Harden Quench Freeze Temper)
 
How big are those gears ? We used to make that steel for shock loaded bearings and gears . Tough stuff !
 
me2 said:
Cryogenic treatment does not universally cause improvement. A member here named Hardheart tested several steels with and without cryogenic treatment and found the non-cryo treated blades held their edges better in the majority of tests. Cryo treated blades only did better in about 40% of the tests. Whether or not cryo benefits a blade is dependent on steel and overall heat treating procedure. There are cases where the cryo treated blades are actually softer than noncryo treated blades when the other steps in the procedure are held the same. So, just saying the blades are cryo treated doesn't really mean much. In the end, the maker has to decide if cryo works in their toolbox, and after all the theory and research, some comparisons are needed to make that decision.
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hey there, thanks for the mention :) Actually, it was two steels, one really just the PM version of the other. I also got the last bit of SEM imagery last year, and recently found my old hand written doc of the thickness behind the edge measurements I had taken. Still need to clean up the paper I was writing with the assistance of the images, but life has been getting in the way to a ridiculous degree. Maybe when I take vacation later in the year I can finish what I started years ago.

Personally, cryo is not really a selling point. We can get 100% increase in wear resistance by choosing a different alloy, so there is more than one way to reach the endpoint. In a custom, I will request cryo if the martensite finish point calls for it, but cryo treating everything that goes through the shop doesn't mean a lot to me.
 
atavist said:
Some steels may not "need it" but they all benifit from it... even simple carbon steels.
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Necro bump vs starting a new thread: Some steels benefit more than others? I read it was originally used to toughen tools made from tool steels.
 
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