CTS-XHP/Duratech 20CV?

[cziv]

I can't quite agree on the luster issue. I've put my Manix 2 in CTS-XHP through my buffing wheels and got quite a lustrous mirror finish. The edge was done on the Edge Pro and also had quite a shine.

I'm talking about the difference in the two blade steels on XM's that Rick makes.

 

[Gress]

I do too! My fatty slicer in S35VN cuts like a laser!!

Yes s35vn is that good!
XHP though is as good as it gets too (think D2)
20CV is great also and perhaps a bit more tough.

It is great to have all these choices. Thanks Rick!

 

[Noctis3880]

I'm talking about the difference in the two blade steels on XM's that Rick makes.

Yes, but isn't that somewhat random even between two knives of the same steel?

Not that it's a reliable way to tell the difference, as it would require me to have an XM-18 in each steel, or for me to send my knife to someone with the 20CV version. And let me just say that hell will freeze over before I let this knife out of my sight.

Still, I suppose it'll be easy to tell if I cut some cardboard with it.

Last time I checked, the edge on my Manix 2 was completely dulled inside of 5 minutes trimming some corn.

 

[Noctis3880]

Look at what I got this morning:

The knife came in a bag with a handwritten note(which I threw away) inside that said that it was 20CV steel. However upon closer inspection, I saw "CTS-XHP" very faintly scratched onto the titanium side of the blade. It's doubtful any camera would pick it up unless said camera costs more than the XM-18 itself. The note also said that the scale was rare earth green, but it looks pretty black to me so I assume there was a mixup somewhere.

Anyways, onto the first impressions.

I'm not sure if this is just me, but the lockbar/detent felt a little..."loose". Given that this is a flipper model, I sort of thought that I could open the blade using the flipper alone, but it did require a wrist flick. Ditto with the thumb studs, as I can't seem to simply "flick" the blade open with the studs as I could have with my ZT 0551. The looseness does make opening beyond smooth, like Axis lock smooth but without the blade play issues.

Edge holding is pretty decent. I trimmed some celery and onions(root has some dirt which has silicates that are hard on the edge) and cut some cardboard with it, and the edge still roughly push cuts paper.

I am feeling a certain amount of buyer's remorse, as I don't think it was worth $660, maybe $575 given the(from what I can tell) brand new status. I can't say that this utterly blows my Lionsteel SR-1 away, but it's curious that I have little to no hesitation in using my XM-18 for any and all cutting tasks while I'm not quite as eager to do the same with my SR-1. This is a unique knife that is a work of art, and yet also begs to be used at the same time.

I AM looking forward to swapping the black scale out for orange, but given that I also need to purchase the spanner tool and the proper size allen wrench(if I'm looking at the screws right), that's going to have to be put on hold until after Christmas seeing that this knife drove me bankrupt, and I hope Rick is proud of himself:thumbup:.

 

[law1173]

So I assume that the one I got direct from Rick three weeks ago is 20CV as it is unmarked, not that it makes a difference to me.

I agree that it is not a $660 knife, but as long as people are willing to pay those prices, then it is worth the price. It is a great knife though.

 

[cziv]

You're implying that CTS-XHP is inferior to the Duratac 20CV in edge retention? I doubt that I'll ever know the difference.

 

[flatgrinder]

Duratech 20CV has better edge retention and takes a sharper edge. It has a lot more vanadium carbides.

CTS-XHP is just newer and "the fad steel of the month" so it has a higher premium right now. It's basically an improved 440C.

Over time, for people who actually use their knives ... Duratech 20CV is better for slicing.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[cziv]

Duratech 20CV and CTS-XHP are BOTH premium blade steels!

 

[Noctis3880]

Duratech 20CV has better edge retention and takes a sharper edge. It has a lot more vanadium carbides.

CTS-XHP is just newer and "the fad steel of the month" so it has a higher premium right now. It's basically an improved 440C.

Over time, for people who actually use their knives ... Duratech 20CV is better for slicing.

Just my 2 cents.

The apples I just sliced up happens to disagree with that statement, mostly because I cracked the slices several times with my XM-18. This knife isn't exactly a prime slicer due to the thickness, but I still find it pretty good for a variety of EDC tasks.

Whether it's a fad steel or not will require more extensive use to say for sure.

 

[cziv]

After forgetting about it now re-thinking things. Rick makes his XM's for "hard use" If I want to slice apples I'll use my paring knife or a Spyderco Military.

That said, I'm loving my new CTS-XHP XM-18. I say we enjoy them and use the heck out of them!

 

[rickCPD]

20CV, CTS, S35VN. Let's not split hairs. (no pun )

CZIV said it right. Rick designed this knife to be beat the hell up. Abused, mistreated and still beg for more.

If you need a knife to thinly slice tomatoes for a nice garden salad. I'm sure there are some better options out there for that.

Good info in this thread. Keep it coming. :thumbup:

 

[Noctis3880]

After forgetting about it now re-thinking things. Rick makes his XM's for "hard use" If I want to slice apples I'll use my paring knife or a Spyderco Military. That said, I'm satisfied with my new CTS-XHP XM-18.

I'd have liked a Duratech 20CV blade but if I get to cranking into it on a tough cutting job (which may never happen) and the blade snaps (I've never had that happen with any knife), I'll send it to Rick and I know he'll fix me up. :thumbup:

I say we enjoy them and use the heck out of them and get back and compare our results - right?

Hmm, I'm getting some mixed feelings about it all.

My XM-18 blade started rusting around the pivot, and that was just after one day of use. I could easily rub it off with my fingers, though I'll need to take the knife apart to get at the spots just around the pivot area. It's surprising given the 16% Chromium content of the steel itself, though I suppose it's entirely possible that the heat treat left a lot of it tied up in carbides for wear resistance. It could change after I rub the blade with some Brasso, which will hopefully smooth out the microscopic valleys without altering the tumbled finish too much. However, I still feel shocked that a stainless steel could rust like carbon steel like that.

It could simply be me, but I feel 20CV would have had better performance because vanadium makes up a good portion of the carbides, leaving more free chromium in the matrix for better stain resistance. I also think that the vanadium carbides gives an advantage in wear resistance, the ability to take a fine edge, and better toughness(large chromium carbides vs smaller vanadium carbides).

I also would've thought that a "hard use" knife would've been better off with a nice carbon steel like CPM-3V and a mirror finish for stain resistance. I certainly believe the tumbled finish does a great job of hiding signs of wear, but a mirror finish + carbon/tool steel combo sounds better in terms of practicality and the intended use of the knife. The current setup seems to tell me to stay away from cutting foods with the knife, and if that's the case I would want carbon steel in the blade because stain resistance seems to serve little purpose unless the knife was also meant for the coast guard.

But that's just MY opinion. I am not a firefighter.

Still, as I said, I'll have to see if the rust becomes a further issue with more use. With that said, I think I'll cut down a USPS Flat Rate box to shreds to check out on the edge retention a little more:thumbup:.

 

[cziv]

A tip for anti-rust is to buy some Miltec-1 and heat the blade and pivot up pretty damn hot with a blow dryer and wipe a few drops on the blade and a drop on the top & bottom of the pivot.

Reheat and as it gets more fluid (it will) wipe away any excess. Reheat every four hours or so until any trace of the Miltec-1 is gone. Repeat this procedure for 2 more days.

I do this to a lot of my knives and they'll bead water like car wax. Just my way and it works for me.

 

[Noctis3880]

Noctis3880,

Isn't that a new XM-18 you're talking about and it's showing rust alreday? What were you doing if you don't mind sharing? Also, a tip for anti-rust is to buy some Miltec-1 and heat the blade and pivot up pretty damn hot with a blow dryer and wipe a few drops on the blade and a drop on the top & bottom of the pivot.

Reheat and as it gets more fluid (it will) wipe away any excess. Reheat every four hours or so until any trace of the Miltec-1 is gone. Repeat this procedure for 2 more days.

I do this to a lot of my knives and they'll bead water like car wax. Just my way and it works for me.

Nothing harsh I assure you. Mostly I was trimming some celery, onions, cut some cardboard, and cut up an apple. In all cases I washed the blade with soap and water and wiped it dry. My Lionsteel SR-1 also has a spot of rust or two, but not as much as the XM-18.

As for the Miltec-1, is that food safe and how long does the coating last with light to medium use?

 

[cziv]

It is a water repellent and drys - "dry" I'm shocked to hear that you cut up some veggies and washed & dried your blade and it's got rust on it!

Miltec-1 is not like mineral oil - you'd have to look up it's properties on Google.

That sure is a bummer. Don't even want to use it in the rain if it's like you describe.

As mentioned, I don't use my knives for food preparation - unless some unforeseen emergency in the future might require it, but a little water and a towel off - that doesn't sound promising. Don't want to jump the gun - so I'll shut up for now.

 

[Noctis3880]

It is a water repellent and drys - "dry" I'm shocked to hear that you cut up some veggies and washed & dried your blade and it's got rust on it!

Miltec-1 is not like mineral oil - you'd have to look up it's properties on Google.

That sure is a bummer. Don't even want to use it in the rain if it's like you describe.

As mentioned, I don't use my knives for food preparation - unless some unforeseen emergency in the future might require it, but a little water and a towel off - that doesn't sound promising. Don't want to jump the gun - so I'll shut up for now.

Here are the pictures:

Brasso did the trick in seconds. I also coated the pivot area of the blade with some Tuf Glide and will put the knife back together with some Chris Reeve Fluorinated Grease between the washers, the blade, and the handle for good measure.

I also did some light cardboard cutting(just a small piece) and noticed one particular attribute of the steel. It seems to lose the razor edge very quickly, but keeps an aggressive slicing edge for quite a while. At least, that's what I assume given that push cutting the cardboard would result in tearing while a long slicing motion would cut it clean.

 

[Noctis3880]

This is getting a little ridiculous now.

After I put it all together, I rinsed the blade out with water and wiped it dry. And AGAIN I find spots of rust near the pivot, even AFTER the application of Tuf Glide(of which I want my money back because apparently it does nothing).

 

[cziv]

That blade is riding between Ti & teflon washers. Miltec-1 will stop that cold IMHO. Why do you constantly wash your knife all the time?

 

[softrockrenegade]

I also had some rust issues on one of my 20cv blades around the pivot .. I cleaned it off no problem but I think there is some rust where the thumb stud is pressed into the blade ! I'm thinking about sending it in for the shop to look at so things dint get worse .

Very hard to see but it's there

 

[Noctis3880]

That blade is riding between Ti & teflon washers. Miltec-1 will stop that cold IMHO. Why do you constantly wash your knife all the time?

I tend to use my knives on food every now and again, and I would think washing it after cutting food was a natural thing to do.

Plus because of the above reason, I wanted to wash any leftover Brasso off the blade.

In any case, I feel tempted to put a mirror finish on the blade to avoid further rust issues. Of course, I find it curious that my ZT 0551 doesn't seem to have the same problems with its stonewashed blade, which feels even rougher than the XM-18. Maybe even Elmax has better properties than CTS-XHP.