CTS-XHP vs Elmax

:thumbup: When everything are optimal - a matrix with least amount of non-Fe inclusions is toughest (highest ductility).
DeadboxHero said:
I don't understand how this post helps the claim that elmax is the toughest if CPM 154 has not been used, also that chart doesn't show anything, let alone argue that elmax is tougher then CPM 154, Chuck doing some testing doesn't tell me anything either.

Meanwhile if you lower the carbon and carbide volume generally speaking the toughness increases

I feel like the Elmax toughness is blown out of proportion, its tough for what it is but its still a steel at 1.70 carbon and 18% chromium with the 3% vanadium.

thrid gen powder or not, that's alot of volume and can't beat physics

there is a reason the toughest steels in the world don't have past 1% carbon and plus 12% chromium (3v, infi,5160,80crv2)

154 cm is a much simpler alloy, powder it and it can be very tough.

1.05 carbon, 14% chromium, 4% molybdenum

Id be interested in which is tougher between CTS- 40cp and CPM154 now that would be interesting.


if I had a gun to my head and had to choose a sword or axe in elmax or cpm154...
well both are the wrong steel for that application:D

but I would have to choose cpm 154 because it is tougher, More ductile, less likely to break then elmax if all things were equal.

I don't hate Elmax, its awesome steel,
for a knife I'd rather have Elmax, but its not the toughest powdered stainless steel.
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LukeTheSpook said:
I wonder if we gave 100 BF members a pair of unlabeled knives and asked them to use them for a month and then tell us which one was elmax and which one was CTS XHP.

I'm willing to bet very few or no one would be able to tell them difference.
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This is a good idea, with many steels ,I would bet most myself included could not tell.
Sign me up.
 
I suggest you do some testing and post the results.

I agree with the results of the tests. I did not do the testing, but I was partially involved. My personal testing confirmed the results of the tests. When you look at the chart, the fifth bar from the left is CPM154. Please tell us about your testing results.

I partially disagree with some of what you wrote regarding toughness. Did you personally test knives with more than "1% carbon and plus 12% chromium"? Have you tested M4, PD-1, Cru-Wear (any of the X-Wear series), Vanadis 4 Extra, K390, etc? All the steels I listed have high alloy content. Some of the steels I listed are used (and win) in cutting composition because of their toughness and edge retention.

You argue that powder metallurgy makes CPM154 tougher, but 3rd Generation PM "can't beat physics". I suggest you compare M390 and CPM20CV. The composition is very close so you can do a side by side test to determine if 3rd Gen PM makes a difference.

BTW, AEB-L is much tougher than CPM154. ;)

Chuck


DeadboxHero said:
I don't understand how this post helps the claim that elmax is the toughest if CPM 154 has not been used, also that chart doesn't show anything, let alone argue that elmax is tougher then CPM 154, Chuck doing some testing doesn't tell me anything either.

Meanwhile if you lower the carbon and carbide volume generally speaking the toughness increases

I feel like the Elmax toughness is blown out of proportion, its tough for what it is but its still a steel at 1.70 carbon and 18% chromium with the 3% vanadium.

thrid gen powder or not, that's alot of volume and can't beat physics

there is a reason the toughest steels in the world don't have past 1% carbon and plus 12% chromium (3v, infi,5160,80crv2)

154 cm is a much simpler alloy, powder it and it can be very tough.

1.05 carbon, 14% chromium, 4% molybdenum

Id be interested in which is tougher between CTS- 40cp and CPM154 now that would be interesting.

if I had a gun to my head and had to choose a sword or axe in elmax or cpm154...
well both are the wrong steel for that application:D

but I would have to choose cpm 154 because it is tougher, More ductile, less likely to break then elmax if all things were equal.

I don't hate Elmax, its awesome steel,
for a knife I'd rather have Elmax, but its not the toughest powdered stainless steel.
Click to expand...
 
AEB-L, also my first choice for a stainless (although I usually run away from stainless). RWL-34 would be a good choice, also.
 
FrozenTurtle said:
Do you know any other american alternatives to Elmax? I have heard some people say Elmax is not worth a penny more than S30V or S35VN.
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American alternatives :rolleyes: are very popular these days..... I personally don't have any XHP knife to compare but I have my custom M390 ,Elmax,S35VN these knives have proper HT and that's rank,
for my interesting compare have Spyderco Military S30V and I'm not impressed at all...to get clear S35VN is custom HT at 62,6RC a little unusual , I'm impressed how he perform ...but Elmax RULES :thumbup:
 
DeadboxHero said:
I don't understand how this post helps the claim that elmax is the toughest if CPM 154 has not been used, also that chart doesn't show anything, let alone argue that elmax is tougher then CPM 154, Chuck doing some testing doesn't tell me anything either.

Meanwhile if you lower the carbon and carbide volume generally speaking the toughness increases

I feel like the Elmax toughness is blown out of proportion, its tough for what it is but its still a steel at 1.70 carbon and 18% chromium with the 3% vanadium.

thrid gen powder or not, that's alot of volume and can't beat physics

there is a reason the toughest steels in the world don't have past 1% carbon and plus 12% chromium (3v, infi,5160,80crv2)

154 cm is a much simpler alloy, powder it and it can be very tough.

1.05 carbon, 14% chromium, 4% molybdenum

Id be interested in which is tougher between CTS- 40cp and CPM154 now that would be interesting.


if I had a gun to my head and had to choose a sword or axe in elmax or cpm154...
well both are the wrong steel for that application:D

but I would have to choose cpm 154 because it is tougher, More ductile, less likely to break then elmax if all things were equal.

I don't hate Elmax, its awesome steel,
for a knife I'd rather have Elmax, but its not the toughest powdered stainless steel.
Click to expand...

Lower carbon/carbide volume is not always translate into a tougher steel. Metallurgy is not that simple as you made it sound.

It depend on the final matrix of the overall structure and the aimed hardness.

For example, If you try to push steel like 5155 to 60HRC tempered you will suffer carbon lean martensite and the toughness will drop down significantly compare to hypereutectoid steel like 52100 or 80CRV2.

I have tested 5155 at 60RC and the edge holding is much lower compare the the same steel at 57RC because of the micro chipping at the edge.

There is a Daido's steel name G05, it is very close to 80CRV2 in compostion, 0.8C with hint of CrMoV and in multiple testing this steel is marginally tougher than both 5155 and 5160 at any hardness.

Some type of carbide such as Vanadium also help on refining grain because it pin grain boundaries at high temperature and finer grain is always lead to tougher steel.
 
Shqxk,

I argee, it is more complex, that's why its silly to say Elmax is the toughest :D:p
 
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twice chop wild boar of shank and no microchip at all :D
WP_20150909_004.jpg

for me good enough :thumbup:
 
What exactly, is the definition of "tough", when referring to blade steel?
 
jpm2 said:
What exactly, is the definition of "tough", when referring to blade steel?
Click to expand...

Toughness : The ability to take an impact without damage, by which we mean, chipping, cracking, etc. Toughness is obviously important in jobs such as chopping, but it's also important any time the blade hits harder impurities in a material being cut (e.g., cardboard, which often has embedded impurities).
 
jpm2 said:
What exactly, is the definition of "tough", when referring to blade steel?
Click to expand...
Twindog said:
resistance to chipping, cracking and breaking.
Click to expand...
Thanks :thumbup:
What about "impact strength" ?
EDIT: I see chumaman answered the impact strength question by equating it to "tough"?

chumaman said:
Toughness : The ability to take an impact without damage, by which we mean, chipping, cracking, etc. Toughness is obviously important in jobs such as chopping, but it's also important any time the blade hits harder impurities in a material being cut (e.g., cardboard, which often has embedded impurities).
Click to expand...

"Toughness" and "Impact strength" are the same?
 
jpm2 said:
Thanks :thumbup:
What about "impact strength" ?
EDIT: I see chumaman answered the impact strength question by equating it to "tough"?



"Toughness" and "Impact strength" are the same?
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There are different ways to measure toughness, and it's easy to get lost in the weeds at that level. You can break a knife with impact or steady stress.

Here's Crucible's take:

Toughness, as considered for high hardness knife steels, is the relative resistance of a material to breakage, chipping, or cracking under impact or stress. Toughness may be thought of as the opposite of brittleness. Toughness testing is not as standardized as hardness testing. It may be difficult to correlate the results of different test methods.

Common toughness tests include various impact tests and bend fracture tests.
In service, wear failures are usually preferable to toughness failures (breakage). Breakage failures can be unpredictable, catastrophic, and even a safety concern. Conversely, wear failures are usually gradual, and can be anticipated and planned for. Toughness failures may be the result of inadequate material toughness, or a number of other factors, including heat treatment, fabrication (grinding abuse), or a multitude of usage issues.

Toughness data is useful to predict which steels may be more or less prone to chipping or breakage than other steels, but toughness data cannot alone predict the performance life of a knife.

https://www.crucible.com/pdfs/SelectorKnifePocketRotatedCrucibleLLC.pdf
 
Toughness is a blend of strength and ductility and how far a material can deform plastically under stress and strain without failure and fracture. Its a very broad term and is used more specifically to describe more detailed types of toughness such as impact toughness.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Toughness is a blend of strength and ductility and how far a material can deform plastically under stress and strain without failure and fracture. Its a very broad term and is used more specifically to describe more detailed types of toughness such as impact toughness.
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I kind of disagree. Toughness is resistance to breaking, cracking or chipping, whether from impact or pressure. Strength is resistance to rolling or bending (beyond the yield point). Strength is highly correlated to hardness.

Edge stability is a blend of toughness, strength and wear resistance.
 
Knife A & knife B, each chops a nail.

Knife A resulted with a 3 mm dent.
Knife B resulted with a 2 mm chip.

Which one is tougher?

For me - B is tougher because it has less damaged. Otoh in knife world, the answer might be 50/50 because pliable/ductile often marketed as tough. However, if knife B has a crack longer than 3mm or broke in half - Knife A is tougher.
 
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Twindog said:
I kind of disagree. Toughness is resistance to breaking, cracking or chipping, whether from impact or pressure. Strength is resistance to rolling or bending (beyond the yield point). Strength is highly correlated to hardness.

Edge stability is a blend of toughness, strength and wear resistance.
Click to expand...
This makes the most sense to me.
 
Twindog said:
I kind of disagree. Toughness is resistance to breaking, cracking or chipping, whether from impact or pressure. Strength is resistance to rolling or bending (beyond the yield point). Strength is highly correlated to hardness.

Edge stability is a blend of toughness, strength and wear resistance.
Click to expand...

Josey,

The problem with that definition is that toughness is more then just "resistance to breaking past the yield strength", that is the definition of ductility; how well something deforms plasticity past the tensile strength towards failure. ( not to be confused with "toughness") otherwise, based on that definition, a knife made out of play-doh would be the toughest knife ever made but plah-doh is not "tough". That is why toughness is a blend of strength and ductility.

This is the definition used by material science and metallurgy and can be seen and explained better in stress/strain graphs and charts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughness


So, when toughness is talked about as the "ability of the material to absorb energy up to fracture" they are also including the strength at the front end and the ductility near tail end towards the failure;crack,chip, break.

Hence, while toughness favors the more ductile metals its not completely dependent on ductility (plastic deformation) and also needs strength and resilience(elastic deformation) with ductility to truly be "tough" and display elastic and plastic deformation under use (stress/strain) this is Why CPM 154 is simply tougher then Elmax. Its more ductile, the edge failures I've seen as a sharpener and user have been more towards plastic failure rather then brittle failure seen on Elmax.


hahaha lets also clear the confusion,

I Love Elmax, we all do when its done right :D

but if the application needed a tougher Powdered stainless it would not be Elmax.
at the same time, I'm not saying toughness is everything, a more brittle material like ceramic can have more overall edge holding with the right application and user then a super tough steel. I hate ceramic for knives but I can't argue with the facts.

This is why its a headache to discuss this on the internet, one guys experience using his knife to pry open clams all day versus another who only seldom opens letters and amazon packages will produce widely varying reports on what steel has the best performance let alone actually isolating the microstructure, geometry and how it was sharpened.

This is why its just about moot to discuss hahaha
but we all enjoy talking about knives here so we must! :D
 
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