Custom Handmade Knives?

L6steel

L6steel

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
Messages
5,855
After all the stink raised in another thread in another forum, I have to ask you knife buyers/collectors a question. I was going to place an order with Admiral steel to have 25 drop point blanks laser cut. The reson I decided to do this is mostly to increase my production. Unless you've actually done it, you cannot believe the tedium of bandsawing even 5-10 blades. Well, heres my question, do you folks care if I cut them out myself, or have them laser cut by someone else? I sure do appreciate your input!! Take care! Michael
http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel



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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
I think that being upfront with your customers is what's really important. A agree that having laser cut blanks will save a bunch of time, but the customer should know that your blanks are laser cut. I personally will buy something on it's own merits. However, if a maker claims that it was 100% handmade, by himself, but the blade blanks were laser cut, I think that would be unfair.

I believe both Allen Elishewitz and Ken Onion have blanks laser cut. No one seems to mind. This is because we all realize that knifemaking is a time consuming trade, and if your efficency can be improved, I'm all for it.

Hope this helps.

~Mitch
 
I'm an extremely fussy knife buyer and I can't imagine me not buying a beautifully finished knife by Mr. Onion, Elishewitz or any knifemaker that might get blades cut. I've never even thought of asking because i simply don't care. I don't see how it could be an important factor in evaluating a knife. I'm buying a knife based on style and quality. How the parts are cut is unimportant to me.
 
Hey L6,
after seeing the size of your bowies I understand why cutting them out is so tiring!

What you could do is mention on your website that you use laser cutting to save time and create lower costs for your customers . . . but that if a customer wanted a knife that had been cut out by bandsaw/hacksaw/chewed out by teeth etc. you could certainly oblige--for the appropriate price.

It is similar to how finishes are listed as options and priced. I don't see people complaining when makers use a buffer (gasp! a machine!) to put a nice finish on the blade; we take it for granted as a "standard option". I think most of us accept the fact that a hand-polished mirror finish takes time and costs more.


 
I care, and will pay more and wait longer for a maker to do hand work. This is not to say that I do not love and own production knives, or that I find production methods to create "worse" knives, it's just my preference.

At least be upfront and let your buyers know so that they can make an informed choice.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 
Hi Brian,

I find yours and others comments like yours interesting. The band saw is a machine, just like the laser, edm, wire, etc. are machines.
Is it the fact that the makers hands are touching the piece of steel as it goes through the machine that appears to make it more "handmade"?

When I started the Vanguard Series, I used as many machines as I could employ before the the steel, titanium, and other parts got to the maker. I wanted to pay the maker for making the knife, not a bunch of set up work and tedious cutting and drilling.

What I did find was this. That pivot pins (bought by the maker not made in most cases)ran about $8.00 pere pivot. However if you bought 500 the price dropped to about $2.50 per pin. The same with thumb studs, the price went from $5.50 to $1.49. Doesnt sound like much, but that $9.51 I saved on each folder was passed on to the customer.

Also, I bought titanium at $20 a pound instead of $40.00 a pound. Doesnt sound like much but between the frame, liners, bolster and clip you use (including the waste) about a pound per knife. Now we are up to $29.51 per folder.

As I was buying in bulk (kinda like my own co-op) I was getting the absolute best prices on everything used in the and on the knives.
This is coupled with the 1-3 hours per knife (that the knife maker does not charge you as part of building the knife). Can ultimately save you the collector/user well over $100.00 per knife. I for one found that to be very significant.

Also, when a maker is building a new knife, it takes days sometimes weeks to get everything to fit right. This cost is also inculded in each knife down the road. Now the same was true for the Vanugard knives. However, this R&D time was significantly reduced because of the use of Auto Cad and utilizing computer driven machines that worked off the files produced with Auto Cad.

Literally, hundreds of hours of R&D were saved by utilitzing this technology.

Consequently, the Larry Chew Quicksilver for instance. Had Larry not employed these concepts and labor saving technology his knife would not have been $675, it would sell for closer to $800.00. The end result would not have been a better knife, just a more expensive one.

Brian, I understand your point of view. I agree that on presentation grade or art knives everything should be done as you state.

However, on the tactical models produced my most of the tactial knife makers. It is imperative that these individuals utilize as much technology as possible. This allows them to produce more knives at a better price. While at the same time making a living.

Remember, these tactical knives are the stepping stones for most from factory to custom knives. If these knives did not have affordable prices on them, most would stay even long in factory knives.

You as a custom knife buyer should approve of anything that will expand the market for the knives you own and ultimately, will one day sell or have sold for your familys behalf.

L6, as others have stated as long as you are upfront about the way you do things. No one will have a problem with you or your knives.

Les
 
Michael,
I'm still waiting to receive my first custom knife.
My only question to you or any other maker would be, will this in any way determine the quality of the finished product? I think I know the answer as well as anyone else here.

If this means that I can actually go to your site and see knives that are available for sale, then I would say this would be a good thing.
 
Les -

I understand and agree with your view that batch produced parts reduce the cost with negligible effect on quality. I'll say that again - I do not believe that giving up the maker's touch is going to, in any way, necessarily flaw a knife.

You probably know that I have no bones about makers using whatever tools or technology to produce their knives.

I buy knives with produced parts, I buy production knives. I buy far more of these knives than I do one-off art pieces.

But the hand touch is definitely a "thing". Like going to see a band live rather than hearing them in a recording that has been mixed and produced to provide optimum clarity and quality. Heck, the sound is better on the recording! But there's something to be said for being there. Hearing the music isn't everything, nor is price.

Here on BF, we often enjoy finally putting a face to the handle. We like making the relationship more human, more personal. It does not necessarily make us better friends, or make the conversation deeper and more meaningful. It's just nice.

Then there's my "control freak" thing. In my own life, I am one who MUST do everything myself, because if I allow someone else a hand, they'll just mess it up and I'll have to do it myself anyway, after I clean up their mess. Something tells me you understand this pretty well, Les!
wink.gif


In commissioning a high end piece, I am using the fruits of my obsessiveness (there's no way I'd be successful enough to have all this disposable income if I wasn't an obsessive, anal jerk!) to provide for my enjoyment. What else would be worth my hard work but the product of a man who shares my compulsion to handle every fine detail of his work with his own hands.

We stand on the same side of the production/handmade/custom debates. I, too, am a purist, and refuse to call any knife not handmade specifically to order a "custom". It's not that it really matters, but if you're going to use these words, you might as well use them right. A handmade series knife is a semi-custom knife. A series knife made with manufactured parts is a semi-production knife. If I'm purchasing a series knife, I'd rather spend a couple of extra bucks and have it all hand made. Just my thing. Doesn't mean I think one is "better" than the other, just that one gives me, personally, more pleasure.

All knives give me pleasure. I love anything that's shiny and sharp. But I get a special feeling from a knife where I know that one of my friends shaped every facet of that knife with his own hands, his own eyes, and his own sweat. Not just for whoever buys it off of a show table, but specifically for me. Maybe it's just me that feels this way. I sure hope not.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"That which does not kill me just postpones the inevitable."
 
It really makes no difference to me. What's important to me is what the maker does with the blank. I'm not as experienced as many here on BF, but if someone were to tell me that all my handmades had been laser cut my response would be something like "uh..so?"
 
Guys: Congratulations on an intelligent debate! I extend that to myself, too, BTW!
Brian-I understand your remarks. To me, the grinding of the blade, the heat treating and the shaping/contouring of the handle are the elements that give the finished knife "the feel". You know what I mean. The character, the life, the liveliness. As I sit here typing, I am covered with dirt and grit because I have just finished grinding a batch of blades. Q-36 blades, which were laser cut. The blanks are beautiful-smooth, flat and smoothly finished. Grinding one of these things is a pleasure. And, my grinding is better because of it. This is the benefit Les alludes to. I know, when I heat treat these blanks, they're going to stay dead flat, because precisely equal amounts have been ground off each side, and the action of the finished folder is going to be like silk-because they are ground to my exact thickness, with tolerances of .0002.
So, these parts help me make better knives, save time, and derive more enjoyment from knifemaking. I'm not slamming out a gazillion knives because of laser cut parts- just making the best use of my time and producing a more affordable product. Easy choice, really.

RJ Martin
 
Michael,

Laser cutting blanks is a part of the knife making process that I don’t mind being “farmed out”. Just be up front about what parts of the process are done by you in your shop and what is done off site by another maker or contractor, so that the customer can make an informed decision. This goes for cutting blanks, heat treating the steel, mosaic pins, etc.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
This whole thing is getting a little distorted. Ken Onion has a similar topic on another forum. I had these thoughts in reply:

I think there may be some misconception about what laser cutting does. Knifemakers do not take a laser-cut blade, put a handle on it and call it a knife. All the laser cutting does is to outline the blade shape. That
shape has to be provided to the laser cutter by the maker. The maker then has to finish and smooth the profile, surface the steel, grind and temper the blade, finish the blade, then the bolster or guard and handle get mounted and shaped. All the laser cutting does is save some tedium on a bandsaw. This is at least true for the types of knives I make (folders may be different - I don't make them so I don't know).

Laser cutting eliminates a lot of scrap, since the people who do it can work with large plates of steel and lay it out for better utilization. Laser cutting also makes it possible for someone to order a John Doe
Super-Go-To-Hell-Garbage-Can-Sticker and know it will look like all the other John Doe Super-Go-To-Hell-Garbage-Can-Stickers. Once a design is drawn or prototyped it doesn't take any particular skill to make another part just like that part; it just takes a lot of boredom. Most knifemakers don't like boredom.

What most knifemakers do like however is to be able to offer knives that people want to buy. In many cases that means knives that are
reasonably priced. To achieve that you have to take labor hours out of your production. That doesn't mean you take out the creativity, craftsmanship or integrity; it means eliminating things that a machine can do faster - not better, just faster.

At shows, there aren't any cheap knives on my table, and there are a lot of folks who can't afford what's there. Personally, that saddens me, not because I lost a sale, but because of the look in that person's eye when they see a knife they like, look at the price tag, and put it down. They're embarrassed and I feel like crap for having my prices where I have to keep them to feed my family.

For those buyers who are hung up on the whole "I want it all made by hand" thing, ask the maker to make you one entirely by hand. He'll
charge you more, and I promise that will make you happier than it will make him, because the additional time he's charging you for is
boredom. Lasers don't make knives any more than guns kill people.

I don't use laser cutting, but I often wish I did.




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Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Laser cutting blanks? Sounds fine to me. CNC milling?, sounds OK as well. I really don't care How the knife is made when the maker is producing a lot of the same kind of thing. Technology will improve the final product, or at a minimum, save time for the maker and hopefully, money for the buyer.

But I don’t often buy this kind of knife. I prefer sole authorship, forged knives. I want them to be unique. One of a kind.

I don’t necessarily expect that a knife made by hand will be better than a knife made with lots of technology. By better I mean better function and utility .

I prefer a handmade knife because it is Art. That does not mean the knife has to be expensive or embellished. Some of my favorite Art pieces cost less than $150 and were handforged, ground (minimally), and assembled by One man. They are superbly functional. They are also extremely beautiful. Their beauty resides in their simplicity and functionality.

Defining 'handmade ' is difficult. Very few makers use Only handtools to make a knife. Almost all use machine driven grinders and drills. It is a slippery slope. Once you start using Any power tools, it is hard to call something 'handmade'. I guess that is why I prefer forged blades. I know someone put their Mind and Soul into the making of the knife. And that means Something. If only to me.

Paracelsus

 
I would buy a knife that was replicated by a computer of the Starship Enterprise.

As long as that replication was 100% the right knife for me, in terms of performance.

Because that replication is a principles come alive, if the principles are right, that is it.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.
 
I agree with the positions stated above. If a maker tells his customers what he's doing, then I don't see any problems arising with the degree of mechanisation he adopts. My personal feeling is laser cut blanks are fine and still qualify - to me - as handmade if the grinding, and finishing are done by the maker alone. Where you draw the line isn't easy though. For example, a famous maker of custom knives who has his blades cut and ground in Colorado, and then shipped to California for him to put the final bevel on the blade, by hand, can claim his knives are hand ground. But his customers should know that he's not doing all the work. They may still consider those knives handmade, whereas others may not, and so choose not to buy. As long as the maker doesn't pretend he's doing everything himself when he's really not, no problem. By the way, I for one am quite glad that series type knives benefit from modern technology being married to ancient, human skills. Can't beat that combo!
 
Very,Very well said GaKnife.I think it has been said a thousand times here that the sebenza is one of every one's favorite knives.How do you think it was made? I myself prefer laser cut blades because of the fact that i can buy a custom knife at a lower price.By having some one else do the grunt work on the knives a maker can spend more time on the fit and finish of the knives.by the way Ken Onion does not use laser cut blades.I spoke with him last week and ask him that same question and he told me he never has but was thinking on having a few made.

[This message has been edited by elim (edited 02-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by elim (edited 02-09-2000).]
 
This does seem to be a hot button in the knife craft as it probably should .After all where do you draw the dividing line between hand made and machine made .

Although I agree with a dividing line I must also state that there is a place for the in between knife, the knife that rests somewhere between custom and production. This market is quite lucrative and is perfect for the knife junky on a budget or the guy who wants the feel of custom but can't afford one to beat up. This is also why I have decided to start a mid line knife.

Ego aside there are alot of pluses to this concept.And although it is relatively new it is catching on rapidly .As with most knifemakers who utilize laser cut parts.They also offer the hand made version to those who prefer them .I fought with myself over this very thing for a long time and tried to analize all aspects and have come to my conclusion that it's ok to do both ,just be honest.

U.H. Mitch

Just for the record ,I will be having some parts cut soon.My knives up till then will have all been hand made soley by myself.
Aloha!!! Ken Onion
 
Well, you guys have helped me out big time!!!!!! I decided to go with the laser cut blanks.Ordered em today!Hey, I still have
to clean up the overall shape, hollow grind them, finish sand them, drill and fit the handles, shape and hand sand the handles, send the blades off for heat treat, get them back from heat treat, resand the blades, finish sand the blades with a scotchbrite belt, glue and pin the handles on, finish hand sanding and then buff the handles, design and then cut the leather out for the sheaths, glue the leather pieces together, sand the edges, drill the holes, then hand stitch the sheaths,oops, I left out dye the leather, then press fit the knife into the sheath to get a custom fit and look, then advertise the knife for sale which means taking pictures and uploading them online, and then writing a description and sittin around waitin for someone to buy it, then I hve to package it up and fill out the labels and take it to the post office, and mail it, then wait till the customer gets it and lets me know they're satisfied and then I can cash their money order and then order more supplies and then start the whole process over again. WWWWWWWhew!!!
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And who said making knives wasn't a complicated task!! Take care!! Michael

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<A HREF="http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
"Always" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
"Always</A> think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"

[This message has been edited by L6STEEL (edited 02-10-2000).]
 
Congrats, Mike. You won't be sorry. I have 40 blanks cut waiting for finish work, a real time saver for duplicate production.

As someone say once, " a monkey can do profiling." I looked for a monkey - couldn't find one. So I enlisted the services of LMS Stampings/Water-Jet cutting, and never looked back!

 
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