Custom = Handmade?

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averageguy

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I believe "custom" is synonymous with "handmade".
If a blade is ground by a CNC machine it is not a custom.

What is the general concensus among other forumites here?
And what is the best term to describe these types of knives?
Semi-custom, semi-production, midtech?
 
I don't mean to sound rude, but do a search.

This has been brought up, beat up, kicked around, thrown against the wall, so many times it's not funny.
 
To me...

Handmade means it was done by hand. At the very most, with machines being controlled by hand.

Custom means it was customized. You told the maker what you want, the maker makes it.

Things like carbon fiber Delicas and XXX-0X Benchmades aren't customs, they're limited.

I would call limited production, but not custom knives (like Korths, Ikoma) "semi-production" or something.

But I'm not a maker, nor much of a conesseur (sp?), so I might be way off.
 
That's nonsense. I certainly have not seen it discussed to death.
Definately not as much as "edc" - "sharpening" or any number of other subjects that turn up virtually daily on these forums.
Moreover what would one search for "custom"? Get checked. (Which I tried by the way)

It's a very relevant topic and one that certainly merits discussion ahead of the many other more trivial discussions seen here so regularly.

Since you ventured onto this page the subject definitely holds some interest for you. Why don't you take advantage of your time and keystrokes to post your 2 cents here. I would like to hear it.

I have studied these forums like a religion for 6 years and I'm not entirely clear - and from what I have seen of this topic there is still some amount of confusion in others minds as well.

This forum receives by far the most page views and is the best place to post for the benefit of new collectors as well as long time collectors.

Edited to add - my focus is the grinding of the blade. The one area that separates a maker from someone who assembles kits. The one area that separates handmade from production. The one area in my opinion that differentiates skill between makers. And. the one thing that makes me not a maker. If I lovingly finish and handle a CNC blade or a blade by Engnath (which I have done) - does that make me a custom maker. Probably not.
 
averageguy said:
my focus is the grinding of the blade. The one area that separates a maker from someone who assembles kits. The one area that separates handmade from production. The one area in my opinion that differentiates skill between makers. And. the one thing that makes me not a maker. If I lovingly finish and handle a CNC blade or a blade by Engnath (which I have done) - does that make me a custom maker. Probably not.
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Many years ago, with the advent of the power grinder, the same argument would have raged if they'd had internet back then: it's not HANDmade if you use a power grinder!

What if I cut the profile with an EDM or Laser or Waterjet machine? Is the knife handmade anymore? What if I cut the profile using, in part, and electric hacksaw? It's not hand-made anymore, is it? No! A machine cut that profile... at least part of it.

And what if I use an electric drill or -- God save us from such horrors -- a... Drill Press!?! It's not handmade anymore is it.

Certainly a lathe is out for making any parts. Especially an engine lathe; as soon as you engage that autofeed, it's not handmade anymore!

Come to think of it, even a manual hacksaw, even a file makes a knife not HANDmade. To qualifiy as HANDmade, the maker gets to use his hands, maybe his feet, and maybe, just maybe, his teeth. But that's it. Anything else is not HANDmade.

[/stupid]

A grinding stone, a file, a hacksaw, these were the first tools for knifemakers. Then, we added power from various sources culimating in today's electric motors and got bench grinders, belt grinders, and power hacksaws.

Lathes, milling machines, drill presses, etc. were added to the knife maker's toolbox.

Then came EDM, waterjet, and laser. These are fancy, expensive tools, but they are just tools.

And now comes CNC. Again, a fancy and expensive tool, but still just a tool.
 
Custom = built to the customers specifications. Doesn't matter how it is made.

Handmade = To me, is when the maker's hands guide most of the construction process.

A custom can be handmade or made by a manufacturer/ factory to a customers specifications(not very common). A handmade can also be considered a production knife. That is, if the design is a standard design that is regularly made for sale and not modified to customers specs.

I personally don't care what term is used. Just so long as the maker or factory is clear on how the knives are made.
 
At least no one is talking about lock strength any more!
It is more importent things like (what knife did you use to open your Christmas presents with) or even more importent (what knife did they use in that movie)
Don't forget the machine that made the machine, that made the machine that made the machine to machine that machine, that made the machine that made the machine to machine the machine that made the machine, to make all those machines was made by hand.

But it don't count unless you dig the ore. Crank the bellows to melt it down. forge the steel with a hand hammer that you made the same way.Make the screws or rivits the same way. Kill the tree or animal to make the handle. Then draw and temper it in a fire. Can you use a file to shape it? Not unless you made it too! And you can't work at night unless by candle or oil lamp.
There may be some who do it that way but I will bet their knives cost a lot of money. Is a knife made that way better than if you made it with a CNC machine? Or just differant? Even the cheapest production knives have hands touching them at some point.
Where do you draw the line? Should there be a line? Is there a point to this topic? Certainly not with this post!
You have to decide for yourself because you will not get any agreement from here.
 
I would say handmade is when, power tool or not, the maker guides the tool or the material by hand. So I guess that excludes things like waterjets and CNC mills in my definition.

Custom is just that-customized. When the customer tells the maker what he/she wants.
 
Yes, it's a valid argument that a custom is one which is unique or to a customers specification.
Although, I believe the hand made nature of a knife is a greater factor than uniqueness.

I don't recall seeing any literature that suggests anyone ever argued that the use of a file or grinder precludes a knife from being a custom.
Since tools have been around as long as knives and that you can't grind knives with your bare hands, I think it's safe to assume the use of some tools is a neccessary requirement. Even the earliest flint knives were formed with some type of tool.

What I object to is the substitution of a brain - skill, and talent for a microprocessor.
Any production facility that can afford and make use of CNC machines does so. These machines are effecient and don't make mistakes. They eliminate the handmade errors and allow for a less skilled workforce.
It is my opinion that a custom maker is defined by his grinding ability and not his programing ability or his ability to hire a competent CNC operator.

If we don't establish some type of definition it will be increasingly difficult to differentiate between custom and production knives. And, would seem to be a minimizing of the knifemaking art.
Are we to permit computers to substitute for craftsmanship.
And how are we to differentiate between computer assisted produced "customs" and handmade customs.


Edited to add: Nuli you've been a member of this forum for just a few hours. Your's is one opinion I'm not interesred in.
 
Don't dismiss CNC programming so quickly. For some makers that ise CNC, there is a huge investment in time to program the CNC. It takes a skllied machinest to know what that programming will end up like and an even more skilled machinist to do some of the amazing work that is coming out on todays knives.

If I want a truly handmade knife, I will have someone forge one for me. However, if I want a knife that is engineered to take a particular design to it's potential, I will go with a knife that has had some CNC work in it. Actually, almost all knives have hand ground blades. While it is very possible to grind a blade purely by machine. It still tends to be quicker and cheaper to do it by hand.

For me, when it comes down to it, I want designs that I like built as best as they can be. I really don't care how it's produced.

As I stated before, honesty in how it is made is the most important aspect for me.
 
My arguments have pretty much been covered in this thread. I've laughed, I've cried, and I've noticed that since absolutely no consensus is being arrived at, this thread probably won't go anywhere other than name-calling.

That said, I don't think custom/handmaid vs. production is that important compared to just overall quality. I've seen tremendous handmade knives and really really poor ones. I've seen guys at gunshows selling "custom knives" which were finished very badly, made by stock removal (which there's nothing wrong with, but isn't as specialized a skill) out of undeclared steel, charging $300.00 for them and getting it! They may have really been that good, but I'd never heard the names before, nor could I find them later, and it seemed like an awful leap of faith. I think 'custom' and 'handmaid' on their own can potentially carry a clout that is undeserved.

The great thing about customs is if you have a good maker, you get a great knife that probably has all of the detailing that gets skipped on a mass-produced number. The bad thing about customs is that due to their expense many people are unwilling to use them, so it's hard to get real info on whether they are high quality or just pretty. Overall, I think the line between what's custom, what's semi-production, what's handmade getting fuzzed isn't all that serious. Word spreads on who's good, and who isn't, and where you can get what you want. I am more concerned with if the knife I'm buying/ordering will do what I want it to do, than stressing over its custom/production status.
 
I don't know if you want to get into this subject. It seems to be one of the really touchy ones. It seems to touch a raw nerve with some people and believe you me, I know all about touching raw nerves.

I always wonder why it is that people tell someone to do a search instead of asking a question. Doing a search is fine and will tell you a lot, but there are new people joining these forums every day and when you ask a question you just might get new opinions every day.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I always wonder why it is that people tell someone to do a search instead of asking a question. Doing a search is fine and will tell you a lot, but there are new people joining these forums every day and when you ask a question you just might get new opinions every day.
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I couldn't agree more!!! Doing a search is a great tool, but if we never discussed topics that have already been covered then we would never hear the views of newer members. Even old members views may change over time as they gain experience. Add to that the fact that most topics have been covered before and we would have very little discussion if we cut all that out.
 
Well, since I've never given my opinion (which may or may not mean squat), I will do so now. To me, a handmade knife is one which is designed and made by one person (or maybe one and an apprentice to do things like polish, strop, etc.). I don't care if it is laser cut, ground to shape, hammered to shape, filed, blah, blah, BLAH. If using a machine makes it no longer handmade, than what about the guys that hammer 'em, but use electric furnaces (instead of a fire pit or something), or send it off to be heat-treated by someone, or use a pneumatic hammer, or...well, you get the point. Now, if a person is blanking or laser cutting 20 blades (of the same pattern) at a time and having them ground, fit, and sharpened by several other people, it is no longer a handmade, it is a midtech. If it is being MASS PRODUCED in a factory, it is production. As far as 'customs' go, I don't like the term, frankly. When is something a custom? If I do some file work on a Benchmade, is it a custom now? After all, there isn't another like it. To me, a custom is a one-of-a-kind, designed by the purchaser (as in, I designed it, now make me one and NEVER produce another). Thank you all for reading my long-winded opinion. Please remember, it is just that; an opinion. :)
 
Dirk said:
Custom = built to the customers specifications. Doesn't matter how it is made.

Handmade = To me, is when the maker's hands guide most of the construction process.

A custom can be handmade or made by a manufacturer/ factory to a customers specifications(not very common). A handmade can also be considered a production knife. That is, if the design is a standard design that is regularly made for sale and not modified to customers specs.

I personally don't care what term is used. Just so long as the maker or factory is clear on how the knives are made.
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I agree with Dirk.
 
i think Dirk summed it up pretty well...

a handmade knife is not always a custom, and a custom isn't always a handmade knife...

couple examples:

i believe Sebenzas (not all), with their many many many available inlays and engravings on the handles could be considered custom knives, as many are truly one of a kind, but i don't believe they're often handmade anymore since Mr. Reeves has began "blowing up"...

or i could send my Camillus Arclite to someone to get some green canvas micarta put on the handle, and tho the knife would have been customized @ that point, it's not a handmade knife...

i hope i'm making sense... it's 3:30AM and there's been quite a bit of Independence Day excitement tonight!

-Ryan
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I always wonder why it is that people tell someone to do a search instead of asking a question. Doing a search is fine and will tell you a lot, but there are new people joining these forums every day and when you ask a question you just might get new opinions every day.
Click to expand...

Mainly because every time I've seen this subject come up, it gets rather heated, and starts turning ugly given enough time.

BUT, since you want opinions, I'll give mine again. :)

Custom - A knife that is a one of a kind original design. A knife that is ordered to a customers specs. To me, a CNC cut knife can fall into this catagory. The older Benchmade Balis fall into this catagory. Why more than one definition? Because it's too broad of a catagory.

Handmade - A forged or stock removal method knife. Something that the maker shaped the blade himself by whatever means, but it was done with his hands. Can also be considered a Custom in almost every case.

Customized - a knife (handmade, custom, production, whatever) that is changed from the way it was originally delivered.

Limited production custom - a knife where a small run of the same knife is made. It may still be handmade, but more than one of the exact design was done at the same time.

Those are just some of my feelings. There are so many knives that can fall into one or more catagory, that you'll never get everyone to agree on a certain term.
 
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