Custom = Handmade?

A number of responses have opined that a custom is unique - to customer spec - or handmade. That CNC machining is acceptable for a one off knife.

Some prominent makers are now using CNC machines. The resulting patterns are not unique.
It is my opinion that these knives are not custom but merely high quality production pieces.
However, knives from these makers are commonly referred to as customs.

This is the primary issue I wish to address in this thread.
 
averageguy said:
A number of responses have opined that a custom is unique - to customer spec - or handmade. That CNC machining is acceptable for a one off knife.

Some prominent makers are now using CNC machines. The resulting patterns are not unique.
It is my opinion that these knives are not custom but merely high quality production pieces.
However, knives from these makers are commonly referred to as customs.

This is the primary issue I wish to address in this thread.
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Why is it not unique? If they make only that one knife, and no others from that same program, it's still only one, making it unique. If they make multiple copies than it no longer is unique, and is now a limited production custom.
 
I think that CNC machines can be used to create true custom knives. At a time not that long ago I had a very different view. My definition of a custom knife followed that of the Knifemakers' Guild. That being that all the major components of the knife had to be made by hand or none computer assisted machines and that everything had to be done by the person who's name is on the knife. I still think that the maker that's name goes on the knife should do all of the major components of making the knife him/herself, but I now think that CNC machines can be used as a tool like any other.

If you want to see knives that I would consider to be custom that have had CNC machines used as tools in their creation, check out those made by Larry Davidson. Many of these knives are true one of a kinds.
 
Dirk said:
Custom = built to the customers specifications. Doesn't matter how it is made.

Handmade = To me, is when the maker's hands guide most of the construction process.
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I think Dirk's definition is one of the best and simplest answers I've seen on the question.

There are things that doing by CNC are faster to do by hand, but the level of precision wanted can only be applished by a CNC. It always seemed strange to me to disqualify something from being a "custom" because a CNC touched it.

I'd add to Dirk's answer that the spirit of the term "custom" includes some notion of a non-trivial amount of unique time and attention paid to that one knife.

FrontSgiht
 
"Why is it not unique? If they make only that one knife, and no others from that same program, it's still only one, making it unique. If they make multiple copies than it no longer is unique, and is now a limited production custom."

Yes. This is my point - they make more than one - perhaps an unlimited number of a given pattern.

"Limited Production Custom" that's a neat term - but which is it Production or Custom.

This is nothing more than a nice production knife. And the fact that they used a CNC machine even if it were a unique example means "computer assisted". That means production for me and apparently for the knifemakers guild as well.


Edited. The ABS only accepts forged blades as custom? Maybe that's what it boils down to. I would be able to accept also anything handmade. But when we start to accept CNC as custom then there really is little distinction between custom and production.

1. Let us accept then that Handmade represents the potentially highest order - we all know there are lesser quality handmades. These potentially represent the highest level of knife making skill and craftsmanship.

2. Custom - the second order - at least one machine process.

3. Production - the third order but potentially the most technically correct /
state of the art. The use of various machines.

With increasingly little or meaningless difference between 2. and 3.
 
When you define a custom as one that is built to the customers specifications, what happens if that person sells the knife? Is it no longer a custom because the person that now owns it did not custom order it? If this is not the case then what is the real difference between that knife and one that is built for a show, that was not ordered by the person that will eventually own it?
 
averageguy said:
3. Production - the third order but potentially the most technically correct/state of the art. The use of various machines.
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but doesn't "production" refer to "produced" and not "machined"?

meaning, a knife maker could make 10,000 knives of a shared design by hand, would you still consider those custom knives? it's then a mass produced item, and doesn't that sorta, disqualify it from being a custom piece?

that would be like saying that up until the point that machines were introduced to aid men in the designing/making of knives, that every single knife in the world was a custom knife...

or am i just exaggerating? haha
 
Keith, for me handmade = custom, it need not be unique.

"meaning, a knife maker could make 10,000 knives of a shared design by hand, would you still consider those custom knives? it's then a mass produced item, and doesn't that sorta, disqualify it from being a custom piece?

No, they are handmade and unique - no two will ever be exactly alike.

"that would be like saying that up until the point that machines were introduced to aid men in the designing/making of knives, that every single knife in the world was a custom knife..."

Well .. yes. But of course, common sense dictates that some handmades were never intended to be customs. And of course some handmades are so ineptly made that most of us would have a tough time calling them customs even though technically they may be.


I know I'm beating a dead horse - I can't help myself. I believe Bladeforums is a major force in sporting and collectable cutlery. Force enough that we may be considered a factor in defining these terms. We are after all the patrons of this art. Our voice may ultimately be the only one that counts.

Are we going to accept the knifemakers guild definition or are we so enlightened that we will redefine it. Is there legitimate justification for altering these definitions.

I think this is a major issue and not an arbitrary one.
Concise guidelines can be established and to a major extent already are.
I accept the current definition of custom as put forth by the guild, which precludes the use of CNC.

Edited to add: It is quite possible the makers using computer assisted tools don't mean for their knives to be referred to as customs and then neither should we.
 
beating a dead horse, maybe... but i see your points very clearly... this is the first topic of this variety i've personally been involved in.

-Ryan
 
This is a very vexed question as you can also throw in the matter of whether lazer cut blades are in fact handmade. I believe that a true handmade knife is one where:

"All the processes of production are guided by the hand without the aid of "jigs" etc"

To me this means that from the first part of the process ie profiling the shape of the blade whether it be done by handsaw, powersaw, file or grinder must be done "freehand" that is the hand guiding the process without the aid of "jigs" or other equipment. All other processes must also be undertaken in the same manner. The only area where lattitude should be given is that of heat-treatment (this may be done out of the "shop") although to be precise one could argue that heat-treatment should be carried out by the maker.

Custom-made in my view is where a knife is made to the customers requirements and may include hand-made or factory production.

Unfortunately over the years we have seen many attempts to "short-circuit" the above principles even to the stage where the customisation of factory blades have been labelled and sold as hand-made items. I believe that the various guilds around the world should adopt and enforce the principles I have listed above.

Knifemaking is not the only area where this debate goes on - I know that in the Spinning & Weaving circles that a similar debate continues to rage.
 
The Knifemakers' Guild rules are for its sanctioned shows. Other shows do not follow the same set of rules. Are those that put on these other shows wrong? There are no written in stone rules as to what is or isn't a custom knife. Until there is, if indeed that ever happens, we are going to have many different opinions/definitions of what constitutes a custom knife.
 
I don't know about the US Guilds rules but as far as I understand the Australian Guilds rules it not only applies to sanctioned shows but to the product the maker puts a "stamp" on - the problem is with the encroachment of technology that the current rules do not specifically mention such things as laser cut blades. I believe the guilds stance should remain the same but that we should keep "handmade" at one level higher than the rest.
 
To make an analogy out of all this;

Is a knife that you sharpen with a spyderco sharpmaker not sharpened by hand? How about a lansky? Edgepro? Does it have to be on a benchstone totally freehand?
DOes polishing your car with an orbital buffer mean that you didnt wax it by hand? Does using microsoft word mean that you didnt write it by hand? Does using an electric mixer mean that the cake is no longer homemade?
I guess some people think so but i dont.

I believe that if the knife maker does all of the programming on the equipment and all of the other major work that it is still a handmade knife. You can't start saying that newer and better equipment that eliminates many of the common errors makes it not hand made if it is still done by one person.
There is alot more to making a knife than the machine work.


I also understand the distinction of someone who can forge a blade using more primative means. I respect that alot but you can't argue that technology is bad unless you want to argue that all of it is. We'd all be using hand hammered blades from the blacksmith if that was the case.
There will be those who can craft a knife and thise who cna make one and those that can produce one. All 3 take skill it's just different skills being used for each.

Neko2
 
Neko2 said:
I believe that if the knife maker does all of the programming on the equipment and all of the other major work that it is still a handmade knife.
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This is a statement that I have to disagree with. Though I do consider that a knife made with the assistance of a CNC machine can be called a custom, I don't think it can be called handmade. I don't believe that programming the computer by hand counts as part of a handmade process.
 
As it appears that this argument could potentially go on and on, I can only say one thing that I feel is the most important thing to keep in mind, and that is "who cares how it's made as long as it works". Please keep in mind that I respect everyone's opinion (as I hope you do mine); that is why I surf bladeforums in the first place. But, if you don't like how something is made, how much it costs, how it's marketed, etc, just don't buy it. End of problem. Personally, I don't care if it is made with a hammer, computer, or just materializes out of thin air (wouldn't that be a pleasant suprise). As long as it does what it's supposed to and lives up to the maker's claims, I'll buy it, use it, then run it up a flag pole and salute it. Okay, that's all. Take care, everybody!
 
As a fairly "new guy" on these forums, I DO appreciate being able to read about this stuff --thanks to the people who are resisting the call to give it up because it has been done before. After all, nobody has to read the thread if they are bored.

I am not sure that custom vs handmade is really all that confusing to someone who knows the market. It is clear, for example that Mr. Reeve cannot possibly be hand-making all of his wonderfuls Sebenzas all by himself. However, if you really want a particular graphic or some other "customization"--why, you can just call CRK, and given the right amounts of time and money, he/they/whoever will do it for you. Will that be handmade? Probably not, but if I wnt that route, I'd kind of consider it at least "semi-custom". I guess my point is that it would be really difficult to regulate the use of the terms custom and handmade. Each of probably has our own particular definitions in mind--and we probably won't agree in the end. However, I learn a lot just from the discussions themselves-- and THAT is why I browse these forums.

I find that dealing with knifemakers and most companies that they are very up-front about how they do things. If I have any questions, a phone call will usually give me the answer I seek--and if not, well, lots of good stuff out there. Anyone investing the kind of money that we pay for high-end production knives--not to mention custom knives/handmade knives or whatever--should be able to expect that someone will talk to you about the product.
 
I went and looked at the rules of the Knifemakers' Guild. I will post the pertinent one below:

2. Items that may be displayed and sold are restricted to handmade
knives (Refer to Rule 1) and knife-related items. The interpretation
of knife related items to be at the sole discretion of the Board of
Directors. The term, "Handmade Knives" shall mean those knives that
are 100% made by the maker, in the maker's own shop using his or her
own equipment. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the following shall not
disqualify a knife from being a "Handmade Knife".

Since in my mind this did not preclude the use of CNC machine, I decided to ask one of the directors of the Guild about whether knives made with the assistance of a CNC machine would be allowed to be exhibited and sold at one of their sanctioned shows. His answer is quoted below:

If you own and operate the CNC in your knife shop, then you may show
and sell knives made by you there.

You might run it by Al Pendray, but that's how I interpret the rules.
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Al is a very difficult person to get through to, but I am going to ask a couple of the other directors, but from the way it looks, the Knifemakers' Guild does consider a CNC machine to be an acceptable tool to use to make custom knives.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
The Knifemakers' Guild rules are for its sanctioned shows. Other shows do not follow the same set of rules. Are those that put on these other shows wrong? There are no written in stone rules as to what is or isn't a custom knife. Until there is, if indeed that ever happens, we are going to have many different opinions/definitions of what constitutes a custom knife.
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Keith,
This an excellent point. What maker has the right to tell another maker what his knives are considered? Or even the knife buying public. How about all the hype in magazine articles
and ads? And who is responsible for determining what consitutes a custom, handmade, midtech or production? As far as I'm concerned, it's the maker himself. If he feels his knife is a handmade so be it. And the same goes for the other terms. The bottom line is who is buying the knife. That is the person I'm concerned about. As long as my customer is happy that's what matters most. Knives can be as individual as we are and just because a maker makes them a certain way doesn't not mean that's the only way.
Scott
 
2. Items that may be displayed and sold are restricted to handmade
knives (Refer to Rule 1) and knife-related items. The interpretation
of knife related items to be at the sole discretion of the Board of
Directors. The term, "Handmade Knives" shall mean those knives that
are 100% made by the maker, in the maker's own shop using his or her
own equipment. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the following shall not
disqualify a knife from being a "Handmade Knife".


There is nothing in here which suggests the use of CNC qualifies as handmade.
While this definition doesn't specifically exclude CNC type tools, common sense dictates "Handmade knife" is exactly that - hand made.

Are there any guild members who use CNC?
 
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