Custom knife dealers- what do you expect?

[betzner]

I know we live in an age of instant info and all that, but I can't imagine seeing a knife I really wanted on a dealer's site and refusing to send an inquiring e-mail as to it's availablity because, gosh, that would be just too onerous a task to place upon my narrow shoulders. Seriously, I can't even begin to conceive that.

Even in the case of dealer sites that do post up the somewhat ambiguous "sale pending" notifications, there is still going to be a time lag between the point when that "sale" becomes sufficiently certain as to be "pending" and the update to the site reflecting that fact. Point is, you're still going to have to make an inquiry of some kind and there is no guarantee in either case that the knife will still be avialable.

I just timed it - it took me 15 seconds to type: "If that knife is still available, I'll take it." I'm a busy guy, but.... y'know.... I can squeeze that into my day.

Roger

Don't worry, Roger, even the more modern "instant update" sites still allow this ancient method.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I know we live in an age of instant info and all that, but I can't imagine seeing a knife I really wanted on a dealer's site and refusing to send an inquiring e-mail as to it's availablity because, gosh, that would be just too onerous a task to place upon my narrow shoulders. Seriously, I can't even begin to conceive that.

Even in the case of dealer sites that do post up the somewhat ambiguous "sale pending" notifications, there is still going to be a time lag between the point when that "sale" becomes sufficiently certain as to be "pending" and the update to the site reflecting that fact. Point is, you're still going to have to make an inquiry of some kind and there is no guarantee in either case that the knife will still be avialable.

I just timed it - it took me 15 seconds to type: "If that knife is still available, I'll take it." I'm a busy guy, but.... y'know.... I can squeeze that into my day.

Roger

Roger, the time/effort it takes to inquire as to a knife's availability is not the issue, it's that I have waited as much as two days for a response or even had to call and inquire after sending an e-mail. Obviously, in most cases these knives were already sold, thus I assume the dealers didn't see the urgency. If a knife is sold, designate it as such on the website. In the VERY FEW instances where the sale is not finalized than remove the sold designation.
IMO, there's other reasons why some web dealers don't show knives as sold. Just one of which is it makes it very difficult for anyone to tell just how many knives they are, or are not selling.

 

[RogerP]

Roger, the time/effort it takes to inquire as to a knife's availability is not the issue, it's that I have waited as much as two days for a response or even had to call and inquire after sending an e-mail.

Then your complaint isn't really an issue of how quickly knives are posted as "sold / pending / whatever" on the web site, but poor service, plain and simple. If there is a reason a dealer can't respond to an e-mail inquiryfor several days, that reason (or at least that simple fact) should be posted on the site. The dealers I work with pretty much respond same day as a rule, next day at the outside.

Roger

 

[betzner]

If it were not for the instant update ability, I would not have found out today that every Curt Erickson that Paul Schindler put on his site a few days ago has now sold.

Sounds like a commercial for Curt Erickson, oops.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

Just wanted to address the marking a knife "Sale Pending".

I had a customer buy 6 knives earlier this year. Because people had been saying they would like to see the "Sale Pending" on the site. I did that will all 6 knives.

Im sure you have already guessed where this is going. Well after two weeks of excuses and then no longer answering my emails. I put all the knives back on the site....they sat there....and sat there....and sat there. Finally a couple people asked me "Why were they returned?" I explained what happened and both said well if you had not been paid...why would you mark them sale pending.

An excellent question. I should have known better.

Consequently, I will not make that mistake again...don't look for a sale pending on my site.

IMO, there's other reasons why some web dealers don't show knives as sold. Just one of which is it makes it very difficult for anyone to tell just how many knives they are, or are not selling.

Kevin, for the most part their is no conspiracy to keep information away from you or others looking to keep track of sales...or lack their of.

I find it interesting that people would do that on dealers sites. Doing that on my site would give you quite the false impression. As 65% of the knives I sell never make the web site....its been that way for about 5 years now. Yes, waiting lists with dealers do work. As well I list on my front page "Knives Inbound". You will notice the majority of those never show up on the web site either.

 

[notdos]

A very interesting thread. I appreciate reading all the varying viewpoints.
I use the automatic sold feature, but not the pending feature for exactly the reason Les noted. I tried it but found it created more questions than it answered.

Phillip

 

[Kevin Jones]

Then your complaint isn't really an issue of how quickly knives are posted as "sold / pending / whatever" on the web site, but poor service, plain and simple. If there is a reason a dealer can't respond to an e-mail inquiryfor several days, that reason (or at least that simple fact) should be posted on the site. The dealers I work with pretty much respond same day as a rule, next day at the outside.

Roger

Roger, if a website dealer's knives are designated as "sold" at transaction then contacting the dealer for availability and waiting for his response becomes a non-event. That's my point, if not marked as sold then they are available. Man I love simplicity.

But yes, taking two days to get back to a customer with a purchase inquiry is poor service in deed.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,

Just wanted to address the marking a knife "Sale Pending".



I had a customer buy 6 knives earlier this year. Because people had been saying they would like to see the "Sale Pending" on the site. I did that will all 6 knives.

Im sure you have already guessed where this is going. Well after two weeks of excuses and then no longer answering my emails. I put all the knives back on the site....they sat there....and sat there....and sat there. Finally a couple people asked me "Why were they returned?" I explained what happened and both said well if you had not been paid...why would you mark them sale pending.

An excellent question. I should have known better.

Consequently, I will not make that mistake again...don't look for a sale pending on my site.

I don't care for "sale pending" or "HOLD" designations either, if a knife is sold mark it as such. Shame on you for marking 6 knives "sale pending" without guaranteed payment.

Kevin, for the most part their is no conspiracy to keep information away from you or others looking to keep track of sales...or lack their of.

I find it interesting that people would do that on dealers sites. Doing that on my site would give you quite the false impression. As 65% of the knives I sell never make the web site....its been that way for about 5 years now. Yes, waiting lists with dealers do work. As well I list on my front page "Knives Inbound". You will notice the majority of those never show up on the web site either.

Perhaps no conspiracy Les, just trying to figure out why some website dealers make it more difficult for their customers to buy.

Nordic, Knife Art, Blade Gallery and Rehoboth all designate their knives as "sold" at the transaction. If payment doesn't materialize or if the customer sends the knife back after inspection then they remove the "sold" designation and it's back on the market. Actually, Blade Gallery's sold knives go on his archive sold page, which is another great service for his customers and another reason why I rate his site one of the best. If you follow these sites daily as I do you will notice that VERY RARELY does a knife get re-posted due to a sale not being finalized.

 

[RogerP]

Roger, if a website dealer's knives are designated as "sold" at transaction then contacting the dealer for availability and waiting for his response becomes a non-event. That's my point, if not marked as sold then they are available. Man I love simplicity.

A man with a love of simplicity should understand that there will inevitably be a time lag (maybe a short one, maybe not so short - how do you know, exactly?) between the conclusion of the transaction and the posting of "sold" / "sale pending" / "probably sold, we're not really sure" / "gosh, we sure hope it's sold" or whatever.

I have bought knives from a couple of those dealers you mentioned and have not seen the update until later that day - or the next day - or later.

My point is - if you want the knife, you're going to have to contact the dealer somehow, right? It's not like they can read your mind. So if you have to initiate contact in either scenario, I don't see the big benefit of the so-called "instant" update. In either case, you have to initiate contact and "wait for a response". In either case, if teh dealer takes several days to get back to you, you have a right to be annoyed.

Sure, the sold update is a benefit, but not a huge one to me. And certainly not a pre-requisite for me doing business with that dealer. I think the point that Les has made about the downside of a "sold" designation before the resturn / inspection perios has expired is very much a valid one.

But hey, if you choose to refuse to do business with any dealer that doesn't offer this service, that choice is entirely yours to make. It doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't have to. You take the approach that works for you.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

A man with a love of simplicity should understand that there will inevitably be a time lag (maybe a short one, maybe not so short - how do you know, exactly?) between the conclusion of the transaction and the posting of "sold" / "sale pending" / "probably sold, we're not really sure" / "gosh, we sure hope it's sold" or whatever.

A man of your knowledge should understand that there is generally no time lag since most (all I have seen) point of sale software systems automatically deducts the knife from inventory and updates the website as "sold" at the same time the sales invoice is generated.
Automation is a great thing.

I have bought knives from a couple of those dealers you mentioned and have not seen the update until later that day - or the next day - or later.

I'm sure if a dealer is concerned that a sale may not be finalized they can override the designate as "sold" step in the process.

My point is - if you want the knife, you're going to have to contact the dealer somehow, right? It's not like they can read your mind. So if you have to initiate contact in either scenario, I don't see the big benefit of the so-called "instant" update. In either case, you have to initiate contact and "wait for a response". In either case, if teh dealer takes several days to get back to you, you have a right to be annoyed.

Not necessarily, as all the dealers I mentioned except one have and prefer you use their "on-line ordering" process where you add the knife to the shopping cart, check-out, pay via credit card, invoice is generated, knife is taken from inventory and knife is designated as sold on the website. No direct contact is necessary.


Sure, the sold update is a benefit, but not a huge one to me. And certainly not a pre-requisite for me doing business with that dealer. I think the point that Les has made about the downside of a "sold" designation before the resturn / inspection perios has expired is very much a valid one.

But hey, if you choose to refuse to do business with any dealer that doesn't offer this service, that choice is entirely yours to make. It doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't have to. You take the approach that works for you.

Roger

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[Joss]

Then there are those people who want you to keep every knife you sell (with the price) on your site. Sort of a resource document. Of course you then have to balance that against what your site can hold based on your band width.

I could set up an "Archive" for that purpose, but would have to charge for access to those pages. This of course would be met with resistance as many will feel I should provide this information for free.

There are many valid reasons not to offer this service (for free or at all), but bandwidth and storage is dirt cheap and certainly not one of them.

 

[SharpByCoop]

I just had a very productive transaction with a dealer. I decided about a week ago to consolidate a few knives from my collection to fund a performance upgrade to my car. My choice to do both.

Anyway, I have the skills and the capability to extract every single dollar out of the knives by listing them individually on forums and/or eBay. (My photo skills are a plus, as you would know.)

Regardless, there is value in time and so I also decided to contact a reputable dealer for his proposal on my knives (I have a selection. He chose four.) Although I know I could do even better (possibly) on my own, I don't mind supporting this dealer with a transaction which will benefit both of us.

Bottom line, we struck an agreeable deale and I sent them to him. Upon inspection, he sent me a note about a concern with a minor, fixable scratch on one of the folder blades. Back and forth to the maker would be worth $50 in shipping and time. OK with me?

Yes. Absolutely. No biggie, and I know if a knife isn't really 'mint' it's hard for a dealer to substantiate selling it as such.

So my dealer worked with me, negotiated pricing, was honest in his needs, and I am ready to buy or recommend him again.

That dealer was Robertson Custom Cutlery.

The pendulum swings two ways. :thumbup:

Coop (Who hasn't spent the time editing his for sale album. Ooops. You'd better call first..... )

 

[Joss]

For me, honesty, good return policy, etc, are a given that most established dealers offer.

As an individual, the sites I visit most often are those that have a clear page with thumbnails of the latest knives in inventory. I also like to be able to browse inventory by maker or by price (I find the "browse by knife type" less useful). For me it's important to be able to get as much info with as few clicks as possible. The number of clicks needed to perform an action is a number that any web-based business would do well to look at and try to minimyse.

I have done business mostly with Nordic and Blade Gallery. In both cases I was very satisfied with how things worked.

When I checked into this it was 2-3 years ago, perhaps things have gotten less expensive.

Les - in internet times, 2-3 years is an eternity. As a knife buyer, I find your site to be one of the least user-friendly, most antiquated, and most difficult to navigate of all the professional custom dealers. Maybe it would be a good idea to research wether a comple revamp would make sense?

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

Even cheap dirt costs money. When you are your company's "accountant" you see every expense, no matter how small.

I only go to a couple of web sites on a regular basis, I notice they don't have an archive as well.

From purely a business perspective, archives should be maintained by the makers...not the dealers.

Another potential problem will be..."Why is knife A $500...in the archives it was only $450?"

So while the band width was dirt cheap. Now you are getting into answering questions about knives in the archives. Unlike bandwidth....Time is not dirt cheap.

 

[Joss]

Les - as I said, there are many very good reasons not to maintain an archive. From a purely business strategy reason, I can think of several reasons not to do it. I was just pointing out that bandwidth & storage are certainly not the most important. Time is different, but an archive shouldn't take much time to manage if you build it right from the get go.

 

[Les Robertson]

HI Kevin,

I listed the knives as "Sale Pending" because of threads like this. Customers seemed liked they wanted that.

I tried it, I found for me it was not something I wanted to incorporate to my web site.

It is the same for the "Sold" sign. I too get very few returns. However, on the rare occasion it happens, it takes time to re-list it. Remember, before you say that should only take a couple minutes. You are the one who doesn't want to spend 15 second sending an email to check the status of a knife.

Hi Joss,

I like the search by maker as well. That is something I plan to incorporate on my site soon.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

I agree, costs would be minimal.

However, it will be the lost time answering emails and phone calls about knives I sold on the web site up to 12 years ago. My site would have to get at least 10 times as big as it is now. Just for the photo storage.


WOW, that would be huge. That would also take a lot of time. Soon people would be complaining that because it is so huge, I need to list by make, type, cost, etc.

Lotsa work for a freebie!

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joss,

As a knife buyer, I find your site to be one of the least user-friendly, most antiquated, and most difficult to navigate of all the professional custom dealers. Maybe it would be a good idea to research wether a comple revamp would make sense?[/QUOTE

Lets see you go to my site and either click on the makers name (which takes you immediately to the page with the knife (one click).

Or Go to a category, click on the makers name and that takes you to that makers knives.

One click or two clicks....Brutal I tell you Brutal!

Besides you know you are only looking for Fogg and a couple of other makers...most if not all that I do not carry.

I agree with you about revamping the site. That is a project for this fall, after the kids are back in school and we have more free time.

 

[Joss]

Les,

On your home page, only the makers with recent knives (however you define that) are listed. Furthermore, some makers have several pages (e.g., Tommy Gann has http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/gannpf.htm and http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/gannhunt.htm). So no, it's not so simple.

One click or two clicks doesn't seem much but it is all it takes me to go to:
- http://www.nordicknives.com/GenTN3.php?bydate=1 or
- http://www.bladegallery.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=820&cat=New+This+Month or
- http://www.greatlakescustomknives.com/New_Knives.html or
- http://www.knifelegends.com/just_added.htm
- Etc....

All sites that do offer that 1 page where I can quickly see all new knives in 30 sec or less. This is by far my favored way of checking what's available.

 

[RogerP]

Not necessarily, as all the dealers I mentioned except one have and prefer you use their "on-line ordering" process where you add the knife to the shopping cart, check-out, pay via credit card, invoice is generated, knife is taken from inventory and knife is designated as sold on the website. No direct contact is necessary.

Kevin,

Not all purchases are made through the shopping cart / checkout option - surely you understand this? If the buyer wishes to pay by checque or wire transfer, those systems generally won't work. Also - many of those systems do not work for buyers outside the US at all. I can tell you for a fact that I have purchased knives from Nordic, Bladegallery, Arizona and Rehoboth and never once used the automated checkout. Perhaps I am the only one on the planet to have chosen to consistently opt out of the "great" automated checkout option, but that seems unlikely.

I will make one final appeal to your stated love of simplicity: even on a dealer site where there is an "instant update" feature, the fact that a knife is not listed as "sold" does not necessarily mean it is still available. Follow?

So it comes back to what you said was "the problem" with having to inquire as to availablity - the delay of several days for a dealer response. My pont remains - that's poor service any way you slice it - independent of the manner in which the site is updated. By your own defintion, a timely response to your inquiry would eliminate what you have identified as "the problem" with those sites that do not "instant" update. I generally work with dealers that provide good customer service. I have made by far more purchases from Les than any other dealer, and have never found the experience to be anything less than efficient and professional. That lack of "instant update" is simply a non-factor for me.

And as for a contact-free purchase, that would never happen for me. I will always want to communicate with the dealer ("indirectly" or otherwise) to make sure I have shipping instructions and such all straightened away.

But like I said - if you see a knife on a dealer site that you like, for a fair price, that you would otherwise purchase, but decide pass on it because you "refuse" to send a 15 second e-mail to inquire as to its availability, that is entirely your choice. It doesn't impact me one way or the other.

Roger