Custom Knifemaker Lee Williams' Anti-"Flipper" (Immediate Reseller) Stance

vanadium said:
It merely allows it. It doesn't encourage it. It's a subtle difference but it's important.

Not if you could intelligently choose your buyer.
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Correct. And if you sell things to people you dont know well below market value, you are allowing your product to be flipped. I consider allowing something to happen that you easily could avoid is acting in a way that makes it more likely, which I consider encouraging it.
 
vanadium said:
It merely allows it. It doesn't encourage it. It's a subtle difference but it's important.

Not if you could intelligently choose your buyer.
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Kinda funny how choombak choombak chose the housing market to justify flipping. Where I'm from, the real estate market has been badly harmed by out of control, skyrocketing prices.
 
I think it's laudable that makers don't want to increase prices to combat flippers, but there's really only two feasible ways around this problem: make more knives, or sell them for more money. Seeing as how they can't readily just make more knives on demand, the only real option left is to increase prices, or allow market demand to set the price via auction or by constantly lowering prices from some ludicrously high starting point till someone bites.
 
danbot said:
Kinda funny how choombak choombak chose the housing market to justify flipping. Where I'm from, the real estate market has been badly harmed by out of control, skyrocketing prices.
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I merely provided a secondary line of thought, that isn't entirely off-topic. :D:p
 
danbot said:
Kinda funny how choombak choombak chose the housing market to justify flipping. Where I'm from, the real estate market has been badly harmed by out of control, skyrocketing prices.
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That housing market analogy was not the correct analogy applicable to this case unless we boil everything down to its most simplistic reason, i.e, the supply/demand cycles. In the housing market, in the same way as in the knife collection hobby I suppose, one does not need to be a R.E. broker (dealer) to be able to buy/sell RE for a profit. The big difference however being that all transaction will be reported and anything other than one's main residence will be subject to capital gains taxes (IIRC, 250K for single and 500K for married).

Buying and selling knives is unregulated and does not require a dealer's license per se, so many knife flippers have been able to get away with declaring this extra income as there's very little paper trail, well at least till entities such as PP are now issuing a 1099 for transactions over a certain amount (IIRC, annually over 20K?). I used to be an auto dealer in a past life when buying / selling / flipping cars was my livelihood. In that paradigm I had to be licensed and bonded as an auto dealer which means that I was paying / contributing into the economy in order to have certain advantages over average Jo Public for the privilege of paying into the system. Many times while in an auto auction (wholesale auctions not open to the public) I "flipped" a certain car for a wad on cash in hand on the spot, just because someone who really wanted that particular car, happened to have missed it (those who know about how large auto auctions work, will know that is not too difficult to miss out on something which one has had his eyes on!). That was my business of record and in a system of capitalism not one iota of explanation was needed as long as everything was being done by the book!

I have read and see that some good ideas have been presented in here but ultimately the rightful owner of any type of property, be it a knife, a car or even a house, can decide as to what to do with it without the fear of repercussions or castigations. However I am of the opinion that someone who decides to do this "flipping" for a living ought to at least be subject to some regulations. I don't know as to how this can be implemented in the big world of knife collection but at the very least here on Blade Forums, having to buy a Ddealer's Membership ($200-$300?) will definitely be in order.
 
madcap_magician said:
I suppose I wasn't really disagreeing with you except to the idea of the only purposes being either trading or using. There are plenty of people who are primarily collectors, whose collections don't often get traded or moved around. Wouldn't be a market for art knives at all without that, I think.
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"Not using the product as intended" covers people buying and putting away in safes. That files under "collectors". Agree with art knives. Same same.

When I stopped by the Cultrotech table at the NYCKS last November they had their new model Svord flipper on display. I suggested it was an 'art knife'. I was more interested in a gorgeous but plain by comparison fixed blade they had and said, "This I can use." They objected saying, "You can use the Svord for work!" I smiled politely. It's a collector piece. Or maybe a flipper's flipper. Again, a distinction without a difference.

Didn't Loveless once complain few of his knives ever get used?
 
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Steven65 said:
Either you enjoy and appreciate top end knives or you don't.
The fact that some like them and never use them does not mean that they are purchased for investment or trade. I hardly ever sell anything and a good chunk of my collection is over 20 years old. None have been used.

People want to own and appreciate beautiful things. What constitutes that beauty and how its presented is certainly very personal. But the fact that I buy engraved or embellished pieces and never use them does not mean that they were purchased for any other reason than they are beautiful to my eye.
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There is nothing wrong with collecting. I get it. I own a number of circa 1640s botanical prints. They are currently stored. Sorry I offended you.

The salient question here is, "Did the knife maker produce this piece to be used? Or did he make it to be put on display? I think both exist. And nowhere did I place a value on either.
 
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marchone said:
There is nothing wrong with collecting. I get it. I own a number of circa 1640s botanical prints. They are currently stored. Sorry I offended you.
The salient question here is, "Did the knife maker produce this piece to be used? Or did he make it to be put on display? I think both exist. And nowhere did I place a value on either.
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No worries mate you did not offend me. We are having a civilised discussion about a contentious topic and in no way did you cross the line.:)

Some years ago at Blade I scored my grail knife from Tony Bose. I was immediately offered twice what I paid for it, politely declined and took it home.
It resides in my safe and I often enjoy just taking it out and looking at it.
Will I carry it? No. Will it make a brilliant edc? Yes. But carrying it means scratches, patina and stuff I hate.
I have a whole bunch of edc's from $20-$500 that cut just as well and are perfectly suited to the job. I don't need to devalue or deface my $3K grail knife.

A waste? Maybe........but not to me. As I said in my post, folks collect things for all sorts of reasons and enjoyment. I like keeping my treasures pristine.;)
 
Casinostocks said:
That housing market analogy was not the correct analogy applicable to this case unless we boil everything down to its most simplistic reason, i.e, the supply/demand cycles. In the housing market, in the same way as in the knife collection hobby I suppose, one does not need to be a R.E. broker (dealer) to be able to buy/sell RE for a profit. The big difference however being that all transaction will be reported and anything other than one's main residence will be subject to capital gains taxes (IIRC, 250K for single and 500K for married).

Buying and selling knives is unregulated and does not require a dealer's license per se, so many knife flippers have been able to get away with declaring this extra income as there's very little paper trail, well at least till entities such as PP are now issuing a 1099 for transactions over a certain amount (IIRC, annually over 20K?). I used to be an auto dealer in a past life when buying / selling / flipping cars was my livelihood. In that paradigm I had to be licensed and bonded as an auto dealer which means that I was paying / contributing into the economy in order to have certain advantages over average Jo Public for the privilege of paying into the system. Many times while in an auto auction (wholesale auctions not open to the public) I "flipped" a certain car for a wad on cash in hand on the spot, just because someone who really wanted that particular car, happened to have missed it (those who know about how large auto auctions work, will know that is not too difficult to miss out on something which one has had his eyes on!). That was my business of record and in a system of capitalism not one iota of explanation was needed as long as everything was being done by the book!

I have read and see that some good ideas have been presented in here but ultimately the rightful owner of any type of property, be it a knife, a car or even a house, can decide as to what to do with it without the fear of repercussions or castigations. However I am of the opinion that someone who decides to do this "flipping" for a living ought to at least be subject to some regulations. I don't know as to how this can be implemented in the big world of knife collection but at the very least here on Blade Forums, having to buy a Ddealer's Membership ($200-$300?) will definitely be in order.
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Well, we all love used car dealers! ;)
Steven65 said:
No worries mate you did not offend me. We are having a civilised discussion about a contentious topic and in no way did you cross the line.:)

Some years ago at Blade I scored my grail knife from Tony Bose. I was immediately offered twice what I paid for it, politely declined and took it home.
It resides in my safe and I often enjoy just taking it out and looking at it.
Will I carry it? No. Will it make a brilliant edc? Yes. But carrying it means scratches, patina and stuff I hate.
I have a whole bunch of edc's from $20-$500 that cut just as well and are perfectly suited to the job. I don't need to devalue or deface my $3K grail knife.

A waste? Maybe........but not to me. As I said in my post, folks collect things for all sorts of reasons and enjoyment. I like keeping my treasures pristine.;)
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There is a big difference between someone offering you double what you paid and you offering a knife for double what you paid.
 
marchone said:
"Not using the product as intended" covers people buying and putting away in safes. That files under "collectors". Agree with art knives. Same same.

When I stopped by the Cultrotech table at the NYCKS last November they had their new model Svord flipper on display. I suggested it was an 'art knife'. I was more interested in a gorgeous but plain by comparison fixed blade they had and said, "This I can use." They objected saying, "You can use the Svord for work!" I smiled politely. It's a collector piece. Or maybe a flipper's flipper. Again, a distinction without a difference.

Didn't Loveless once complain few of his knives ever get used?
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Yeah he did... The Cultrotech knives are truly amazing pieces, but I agree, they are collector pieces for the level of artistic and precision craftsmanship. Goes back to the diminishing level of returns... A Svarn is an incredible knife, but why would anyone use it, when though they could, when it offers nothing in the way of improved performance over a knife that costs a tenth as much.
 
You're right, Svarn. I stand corrected. Thanks. I really really really wanted one of their Yanhook fixed blades but ... $1000 a pop? For a fixed blade? I'd venture most buyers will put them in a safe. Plus, the sheaths looked like they came out of a Hermes Leather Master's atelier. I have reason to believe those two are one-offs and the only ones that exist. Could have been prototypes. And that's a shame because it was the single most ergonomically perfect fit for my hand I have ever experienced.

Check out the handle. Fully wrapped and formed seamless Micarta over a full hidden tang. Bronze or brass alloy hilt? It was a proverbial wand in hand. A light saber. And a blade shape that I can use for 99% of anything I typically encounter. Very close in profile to my Shirogorov F3. Which will never see the inside of a safe. ;)

Pz8e9lS.jpg
 
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Sounds like collectors are mad they didn't get their limited edition knife at a low price, and makers upset they didn't charge more and get all that sweet sweet profit.

It's a buyers market.
If buyers were not willing to pay up, there would be no resellers.

This is really about who controls the profit.
 
Bad Ninja said:
Sounds like collectors are mad they didn't get their limited edition knife at a low price, and makers upset they didn't charge more and get all that sweet sweet profit.

It's a buyers market.
If buyers were not willing to pay up, there would be no resellers.

This is really about who controls the profit.
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That’s pretty much it in a nutshell. The faux outrage is amusing.
 
marchone said:
You're right, Svarn. I stand corrected. Thanks. I really really really wanted one of their Yanhook fixed blades but ... $1000 a pop? For a fixed blade? I'd venture most buyers will put them in a safe. Plus, the sheaths looked like they came out of a Hermes Leather Master's atelier. I have reason to believe those two are one-offs and the only ones that exist. Could have been prototypes. And that's a shame because it was the single most ergonomically perfect fit for my hand I have ever experienced.

Check out the handle. Fully wrapped and formed seamless Micarta over a full hidden tang. Bronze or brass alloy hilt? It was a proverbial wand in hand. A light saber. And a blade shape that I can use for 99% of anything I typically encounter. Very close in profile to my Shirogorov F3. Which will never see the inside of a safe. ;)

Pz8e9lS.jpg
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Those look really nice, but not $1,000 nice... The Spyderco Zoomer is similar construction and excellent materials for a third of the price. Reminds me of the Rockstead thing. $800 for a fixed blade with a basic Paracord wrap? That's only like 6" long?
 
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