Custom Knifemaker Lee Williams' Anti-"Flipper" (Immediate Reseller) Stance

For those defending flipping do you think that there is a fair and unfair percentage markup that a flipper adds to the knife.
 
craytab said:
Throwing politics, socialism, and purposeful broken English into a very contentious issue helps nothing.

This is a hobby. It is supposed to be enjoyable. Flippers hurt that.

As to the definition of a flipper, it's like porn. I know it when I see it, difficult to make a black and white definition.

If you are having trouble telling what a flipper is, you are part of the problem.
Click to expand...
Sorry to offend.
 
People always like to throw Capitalism into these chats now as a straw man that if you don't like flipping you're some sort of pinko parlour Bolshevik traitor.

Capitalism is not in any shape of form that "greed is good" mantra chanted by the clueless who saw a YouTube clip of Gordon Gecko.

Capitalism is a system of mutual respect between buyers and sellers where they both benefit from the transaction.

Flipping for massive profit is not Capitalism.
 
PirateSeulb said:
For those defending flipping do you think that there is a fair and unfair percentage markup that a flipper adds to the knife.
Click to expand...

I don’t care what is a fair or unfair mark up. I’ll either pay a price for something I want, or I won’t. It’s really that simple.

This same argument spans across many hobbies and it all boils down to people complaining because:
A) They didn’t get the item
B) They couldn’t afford to get the
item
C) They didn’t get to flip it

Hobbies are just that, hobbies. Not a need at all. Fair market value is what it is. If a maker sells below the market value of an item, that’s either their choice or their failure to price it correctly.

If an item is “flipped”, that just means that a person with a better sense of the value made a wise decision to buy low and sell high.

Look at all the Randall dealers that sell above catalog price because you get the knife in months instead of years. That is “flipping” as well.
 
cap·i·tal·ism
/ˈkapədlˌizəm/
noun
  1. an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.
Ethical or not doesnt matter. It's on topic people. Sorry it doesnt suit you.
 
BenchCo Spydermade said:
I think people should have more love for just about everything than money. And im not disagreeing with you, just pointing out it goes against capitalism which people seem to be very protective of. That may have to do with why it is so hard to combat flippers.
Click to expand...
Pure capitalism only exists in theory. Even the USA doesn't have a purely capitalist system. There are limits other than strictly what the market will bear.
The only way to effectively combat flipping is for all of us involved in the hobby to make a concerted effort not to pay the ridiculous and greedy markups that are being attempted by flippers.
 
We could argue about the definition of 'flipping' till we're blue in the face.

The important thing isn't labels, it's defending a healthy dynamic among makers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors.

Part of that dynamic is makers selling to collectors at non-market prices. If you're a free market absolutist, that means the maker is placing value on selling their knives at more affordable prices to people who appreciate their work. They are willing to forego a certain amount of dollar compensation to receive some intangible compensation, namely the knowledge that the knife is being enjoyed by someone who loves it and would otherwise be unable to buy it.

Interfering with that dynamic is the problem, full stop.

If the maker is selling at a below-market dollar price in exchange for intangible compensation, and you're robbing them of that intangible compensation, you're a thief. It's that simple.
 
danbot said:
Pure capitalism only exists in theory. Even the USA doesn't have a purely capitalist system. There are limits other than strictly what the market will bear.
The only way to effectively combat flipping is for all of us involved in the hobby to make a concerted effort not to pay the ridiculous and greedy markups that are being attempted by flippers.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Furthermore, what we would now characterize as "pure" capitalism is a relative latecomer to the scene.

But I think that D Danke42 has it right -- capitalism is a red herring -- and vanadium vanadium has it closest to the truth -- that flipping harms the community.

Before anyone starts down the rabbit hole of arguing about the definition of "community" I think that one of the important aspects of being part of it is caring about the other people in it, like Lee Williams and Allen Elishewitz do and flippers do not.
 
danbot said:
Pure capitalism only exists in theory. Even the USA doesn't have a purely capitalist system. There are limits other than strictly what the market will bear.
The only way to effectively combat flipping is for all of us involved in the hobby to make a concerted effort not to pay the ridiculous and greedy markups that are being attempted by flippers.
Click to expand...
Well I've never flipped.nor bought a flipped knife. But I also wont get that worked up over sprint runs and unnatainables or feel terrible when I cant get a knife to add to my giant expensive collection of folders. First world problems there...we are lucky to have time to care about this. So I think folks can calm down a bit.
 
vanadium said:
We could argue about the definition of 'flipping' till we're blue in the face.

The important thing isn't labels, it's defending a healthy dynamic among makers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors.

Part of that dynamic is makers selling to collectors at non-market prices. If you're a free market absolutist, that means the maker is placing value on selling their knives at more affordable prices to people who appreciate their work. They are willing to forego a certain amount of dollar compensation to receive some intangible compensation, namely the knowledge that the knife is being enjoyed by someone who loves it and would otherwise be unable to buy it.

Interfering with that dynamic is the problem, full stop.

If the maker is selling at a below-market dollar price in exchange for intangible compensation, and you're robbing them of that intangible compensation, you're a thief. It's that simple.
Click to expand...

No, you’re not a thief. The seller has unrealistic expectations. The only compensation due to him is the cost of the item, unless there is a contract of some sort that the buyer signs saying he super promises to only use it as the maker wants it to be used. If he breaks that contract then the seller could pursue legal action. Yeah, that’s unrealistic too.

Once the item is sold, the maker has no say in it.
 
Richard S. said:
Look at all the Randall dealers that sell above catalog price because you get the knife in months instead of years. That is “flipping” as well.
Click to expand...

Actually most Randall dealers sell their new knives very close to the actual Randall catalogue price and you are actually getting a service for that.
They allow you to spec your knife as you like it and wait months not years. They are factory appointed dealers, trusted resellers, carry the factory warranty and have mostly been in business for decades. They are legitimate dealers not flippers.

Buy your definition every retailer is a flipper and nothing could be further from the truth when defining flippers.
 
Anybody who sells an item for higher than they paid is a “flipper”.

A retailer is a flipper because they purchase and sell items for the sole purpose of making a profit.
 
BenchCo Spydermade said:
Well I've never flipped.nor bought a flipped knife. But I also wont get that worked up over sprint runs and unnatainables or feel terrible when I cant get a knife to add to my giant expensive collection of folders. First world problems there...we are lucky to have time to care about this. So I think folks can calm down a bit.
Click to expand...
Sure, first world problems, but important to us nonetheless.
The problem with flippers is that they provide no benefit to our community. They basically are ransom demanding scalpers that are self interested and that pisses people off. (hence our excitability ;))
All of the dealers and retailers are participating in our capitalist system properly and are providing value for the profits that they earn. Flippers are not.
 
I have no dog in this fight as I will never buy a custom made knife. I only buy production knives from retailers and unlikely to buy a used knife anyway.

However, from the OP, is see it more as a lack of taste if anything. The guy could have been more discreet, but unfortunately was not. The maker, I should think, wasn't surprised that this sort of thing goes on, but was more upset at the "lack of good manners". Something that as a worker in retail for 45 years I have seen more and more of recently.
 
So from the discussion this far, it seems the only way to combat flipping is to know the person getting the special deal or the highly sought after rare item. So to "lotto" out knives or set up sprint runs that will both go up in value the second they hit the market one is, in a sense, supporting flipping.
 
I guess I didn't word my question right is there a point that the markup becomes unethical? If so what is that point to you and if not why to you is the markup removed from ethics? Do flipper not typically pray on peoples desires charging them an excessive markup due to scarcity and is that ethical? As I look at it the actions I am thinking of are the same as a ticket scalper they work to deplete the availability only to resell it at a profit that is typically excessive.
 
PirateSeulb said:
I guess I didn't word my question right is there a point that the markup becomes unethical? If so what is that point to you and if not why to you is the markup removed from ethics? Do flipper not typically pray on peoples desires charging them an excessive markup due to scarcity and is that ethical? As I look at it the actions I am thinking of are the same as a ticket scalper they work to deplete the availability only to resell it at a profit that is typically excessive.
Click to expand...

With epi-pens, unethical, no argument.

With fancy knives, arguable.
 
PirateSeulb said:
I guess I didn't word my question right is there a point that the markup becomes unethical? If so what is that point to you and if not why to you is the markup removed from ethics? Do flipper not typically pray on peoples desires charging them an excessive markup due to scarcity and is that ethical? As I look at it the actions I am thinking of are the same as a ticket scalper they work to deplete the availability only to resell it at a profit that is typically excessive.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's unethical, flippers are taking advantage of a legitimate sales opportunity.
But makers should be mindful of the resentment it causes and take steps to at least mitigate it.

At Blade in '17 I met a guy who boasted to me that his only reason for being there was to enter lotterys and make $2-3K from the weekend. Basically he treated the Blade Show like a craps table in Vegas.
Is it any wonder that so many people in our community are sick of this.
 
Steven65 said:
I don't think it's unethical, flippers are taking advantage of a legitimate sales opportunity.
But makers should be mindful of the resentment it causes and take steps to at least mitigate it.

At Blade in '17 I met a guy who boasted to me that his only reason for being there was to enter lotterys and make $2-3K from the weekend. Basically he treated the Blade Show like a craps table in Vegas.
Is it any wonder that so many people in our community are sick of this.
Click to expand...
That's exactly it. They're only here to take from us. They don't actually contribute anything to our community.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top