Custom knives gone soft...?

Hmathews said:
I wouldn't mind seeing who said that about their knife too. I can't imagine a maker putting that kind of restriction on their knife.
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By custom knives, are you referring to a "custom" lord of the rings sword that some might hang on a wall, or an art folder that someone could use, but may choose not to because it is a piece of art to be displayed, although it could whittle a piece of wood if the user so desired?
 
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personally, I feel that you are making far too sweeping a generalization with your initial post riderV3, and shouldn't be overly surprised when some take offence. I'm not offended though.

I use and collect knives custom and/or handmade knives. Some of them are 'collectibles', but all of them are made for use. If you'd like to look at them, go ahead and click on my profile, there is an album of them there.

You can't know what every person who buys a custom knife or many custom knives is doing with them. Nor should you care. Where does your interest lie? Go with that, is my advice, (not that you asked).

I understand where the disdain for objects comes from as I wrestle with it myself, but let me tell you that in my experience custom knives have far less to do with status seeking than with boyhood fascination or the passion for creation. If you can't accept that some custom knives are not made to be used as a tool, then don't. Holding those who desire to collect knives, even those not made for tool-like use, in disdain means you're spending too much time worrying where other people are at than where you're at.

Hang around here for awhile and absorb some of what's going on. You'll find the answers to your questions, and then you'll start finding questions of your questions. Then you'll find, as I did, that there is always more to know and that an open mind is the only conduit through which to absorb an evolving knowledge. If that's what you want.

Oh, and by the way; kings, noblemen, churches etc have a long history of commissioning 'war tools' meant for nothing other than ceremony or status. The creation of status or the fulfillment of the requirement of ritualistic ceremonies, through the embellishment of essentially tool oriented items is nothing new, and the only thing that is changing about custom knives these days is that there is an increasingly growing interest in them. Imo.
 
cnas122 said:
I would really like to know what you consider a custom knife. I can think of very few makers whose knives are shown in this forum who provide a warning not to use their knives.

You've started off here on bladeforum with a bang...not because of your original post, but because of your responses to people who have been on this site for years and helped build it. Mind your manners bub and you might learn something.
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......
 
cnas122 said:
By custom knives, are you referring to a "custom" lord of the rings sword that some might hang on a wall, or an art folder that someone could use, but may choose not to because it is a piece of art to be displayed, although it could whittle a piece of wood if the user so desired?
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I'm no expert but I wouldn't mistake a movie prop with a ZT...

It's a custome knife done by some knife maker but from all the responses above I started to think that it wasn't the knife maker who made that remark but the retail store that carries it...


Lorien said:
personally, I feel that you are making far too sweeping a generalization with your initial post riderV3, and shouldn't be overly surprised when some take offence. I'm not offended though.

I use and collect knives custom and/or handmade knives. Some of them are 'collectibles', but all of them are made for use. If you'd like to look at them, go ahead and click on my profile, there is an album of them there.

You can't know what every person who buys a custom knife or many custom knives is doing with them. Nor should you care. Where does your interest lie? Go with that, is my advice, (not that you asked).

I understand where the disdain for objects comes from as I wrestle with it myself, but let me tell you that in my experience custom knives have far less to do with status seeking than with boyhood fascination or the passion for creation. If you can't accept that some custom knives are not made to be used as a tool, then don't. Holding those who desire to collect knives, even those not made for tool-like use, in disdain means you're spending too much time worrying where other people are at than where you're at.

Hang around here for awhile and absorb some of what's going on. You'll find the answers to your questions, and then you'll start finding questions of your questions. Then you'll find, as I did, that there is always more to know and that an open mind is the only conduit through which to absorb an evolving knowledge. If that's what you want.

Oh, and by the way; kings, noblemen, churches etc have a long history of commissioning 'war tools' meant for nothing other than ceremony or status. The creation of status or the fulfillment of the requirement of ritualistic ceremonies, through the embellishment of essentially tool oriented items is nothing new, and the only thing that is changing about custom knives these days is that there is an increasingly growing interest in them. Imo.
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Thanks for being understaing, I'm still modifing my schema of costom knife world and I appreciate your detailed input.
 
That's a first class response from Lorien!

The way I see it, the custom knife world has expanded. Lots of makers DO make knives that aren't pretty, but can take a serious beating. The best of the hard use knives made today are incredibly tough--tougher than anything that was made in the past with the exception of perhaps wootz steel.

Some make knives that are both functional and beautiful. Whether or not you choose to use that knife is up to you, as the best makers' work only goes up in value, so some see these very much usable knives as investments.

Then you have knives that really are only meant to be displayed. I have no interest in that kind of thing, but some do.

Basically, there are makers out there for whatever it is you want, whether it's a hard use tool, an attractive and highly functional weapon or a stunning display piece. There are knives and makers that fall all over the continuum. If you like knives, now's a great time to be around, because if you ask me, they're better now than they've ever been and the variety of what you can get is staggering!
 
As a reply to your original question, no, I don't think custom knives have gone soft, far from it. A quick search on here will reveal some examples of serious use and abuse.:)

I think I understand what you mean though. Nowadays most people (and by that I mean your average person who uses a knife but isn't necessarily 'into' knives) will use a factory made knife. The reason for this is simple. Cost.

In days gone by, the only knife available would have been a handmade one. Mass production, cheap labour, etc, means that most people would rather pay a few £/$ on a production knife to use for everyday tasks than a few hundred or more on a handmade.

Thankfully times have changed. We are all far better off and the village blacksmith isn't the only source of knives. Disposable income (I wish!:rolleyes:) means that many people collect knives for pleasure rather than just buying what they actually need to use. Yes, there are many people who buy handmades and never use them, but this has more to do with re-sale value than quality. After all, not many people want to reduce the value of a $15,000 knife by taking it out and giving it a hammering.

At the same time, there are many people who give handmade knives a hammering on a daily basis...myself included.:D

Hope this makes sense.:)

Ian
 
We use every custom knife we own. HOW??? Well, each knife is a piece of sculpture in steel and as such we display these works of art and view them daily -- our own custom knife show every day of the year. We also own lots of paintings, lithos, plates, sculpture, glass, carvings etc and they are all on display so we have a "One of a Kind" craft/art show everyday too.

Do we have some plates that we eat from? Of course! Do we have some knives we use to cut things with? Of Course!! But we also have some of each that are just there to be viewed and so yes, all our knives are used every day.
 
Every maker I know spends his time on the performance of their knives first and looks second. I've never seen any maker write something like that.
 
I really wonder if you are confusing mall ninja craptastic "knives" with customs. You mentioned seeing it in retail stores and I don't know of any custom makers who sell their knives in "retail stores".
 
I learned a long time ago to quit fretting because a customer chose not to use the knife I just sold them. I would put every ounce of expertise & sweat into superlative heat treatment, tempering, edge geometry, and they would never use it. One might think, "What a waste of my time." I could have skipped all of those steps and he would have been just as happy. And frankly, if he never used it, he'd have never known...

What happerns down the road when for some reason his life depends on that knife, or maybe someone else buys it or inherits it? Two points of thruth: It's HIS knife. He spent his hard earned money on it and he can do whatever he pleases with it. And second, my name and my Master's stamp is on it. Hardly needs more discussion.

I have customers who collect, and others use my knives. I have clients who skin game with damascus & ivory knives they paid me hundreds or even thousands of dollars for. They love to whip that blade out and skin a deer in front of their buddies. And sooner or later, one of his friends will ask to use it, and they can't believe how it performs.

Not trying to brag but, folks like John White, Bruce Bump, Russ Andrews, Jerry Fisk, John Horrigan, J.R. Cook, Brion Thomberlin, Jason Knight, Burt Foster, Tom Ferry, Don Hanson, and myself included represent a unique situation. As ABS Master Smiths we are trained, we are tested, and our knives are tested. These makers' knives may be elegant and beautiful, and extremely expensive, but make no mistake, there is nothing soft about them. The knife my life depends on is an elegant damascus bowie of my own making.

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
Hummm... I believe you might have a point here. I have a much expected custom knife, hand forged Damascus and so on, which is actually soft. I mean, the steel is soft: plain and simple.

I guess some, in my experience one or two, want to turn a quick buck and assume that their knives won't see much use anyhow. But I think this is just the odd few.

On the other hand, there are makers, like Tony Bose, for instance, which are turning out the best knives ever made. I guess, like in everything in life, you'll find the odd worm in your sack of apples.
 
Is anyone else completely unsurprised that we have yet to see ONE example of a maker of a custom knife advertising it as "not intended for use"? In small print, large print or odd font of any kind? And yet this is what the OP holds forward as the basis for sweeping generalizations about all custom knives? Please.

Roger
 
Thanks, Roger.
I know there were numerous comments made that the most of us here were misunderstanding the original intent, but I don't feel I misunderstood these comments in the first post:



"Why is that the production version of a knife could take a beating that a custom version cannot, shouldn't the blades handled by the masters be superior?"

That a lot of shackles got raised and some rather direct comments made is not a surprise.
 
"not a user so don't do this and that..."
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I guess he didn't see this recent thread:
TDTm-1.jpg


What was the OP’s point of posting again? :D


If we dig a little deeper we find another post by the OP that states:

Long story short I've made a leap of faith and bought from a relatively unknown custom knife maker...
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=826766
 
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Hi Mendezj,

This un-hardened damascus knife you have on order, did you know ahead of time that it was going to be delivered in a unfinished state? How did you find this out? And how many hundreds did you spend (you don't have to answer that but it certainly enters the scenario)?

Unless you completely agreed to accept and pay for the piece (it's not a knife) in this condition, you have every right to back out of the deal. If the maker knew the blade was not hardened, and did not volunteer this information, it's fraud plain and simple.

And what of the future of this piece? What if you someday want to sell, trade, or even give it away? What if you leave it in your will? IMO, ethically I don't think you can do any of those things. Or some sort of documentation would have to follow it until the end of time. It's a can of worms. In the spirit of character, integrity, honesty, and a love for the art, I would like to see such a piece destroyed. This is based on what I understand from you post.

Personally, I'd like to know exactly who this maker is, and the full story of why he thinks this is acceptable. Please understand that I am in no way disparaging you :). I just read your post over and over again, and that is what I came away with. If I read it wrong, sombody set me straight! Much of my time is spent in a state of rectal-cranial insertion :o and I often require a little guidance.

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
 
riderV3 said:
In old days the best blacksmith makes the best war tools so only the best warriors get to carry custom baldes on a battlefield where they out-perform all.

But nowadays anybody could buy customs just to store them away and some even labeled "not a user so don't do this and that..."
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In a historical perspective there were tons of Customs made for Royals and Nobles that were marked "not for use" or more "showoffs"; that's no new invention.
 
riderV3 said:
In old days the best blacksmith makes the best war tools so only the best warriors get to carry custom baldes on a battlefield where they out-perform all.

But nowadays anybody could buy customs just to store them away and some even labeled "not a user so don't do this and that..."

Is the amount of cash spent really the only reason people treat customs as eye candy instead of tools...?

Why is that the production version of a knife could take a beating that a custom version cannot, shouldn't the blades handled by the masters be superior?

Is it true that custom blades have gone soft...?

How many of you out there actually take your customs out there and use them like they're supposed to be used?
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Ummmmm I am one of them :). I dont make art. I'm not an artist. I'm a weapons and tools manufacturer, and this is what I do. I dont make knives to look at and put on the shelf. I'm about to build an etch machine, but even before I put a beautiful etch on any knife I make. It will first be video recorded being abused. Every knife I make will have valid genuine video proof of abuse before it gets passed to the customer!

Here is some video footage for yah to answer your question.
[youtube]2xjlgC6xL8w[/youtube]
[youtube]GLuG0N2Aiyo[/youtube]
[youtube]kPbnRzkjMF8[/youtube]
[youtube]kfJZhWFfFCw[/youtube]


I would with all honesty like to subject my knife work to the ABS testing. I live 5 mins from San Antonio, Texas, and dont know where I would have to go to subject my work. So until I can get some notoriety for myself by enduring all of the ABS test for now I must show proof of each knife I make.
It's my own "thing", and in all honesty I simply could never accept an order from a customer requesting a soft knife, or not hardened. I would reject it. Because hardening tempering, and abusing the living SHIT out of my knives is why I love forging them. If I couldnt beat the hell out of my knifes edge to see if it can withstand abuse\use I wont make it. I dont think any knife smith could let theirselves make a non-hardened\tempered knife even if asked to do so.

What if the owner dies, and someone else gets that knife, and goes using it the way it was meant to be used? I would not EVER let a knife go within this life I breathe air being soft, and not hardened, or tempered so that it holds an edge with the idea I am going to die one day, and WHAT IF SOMEONE INHERITED THE KNIFE I MADE.. went using it and tossed it to the side saying "That knife is a peice of s**t it wont hold an edge for anything.. who made it?? Whats this makers stamp let me google it to see what this trash is worth so I could sell it.


NEVER IN MY LIFETIME OR AFTER IM WORM FOOD WOULD ANYONE EVER GET A KNIFE I STAMPED THAT WAS SOFT!!!!!


I would contact that maker and do more than rattle his cage even if I paid 25$ for it!



Thats almost like buying a Mustang GT V8, but has the same horsepower as it's V6 counter part. Whats the point? Why pay extra and get less? It's like drinking decaffinated coffee hoping to perk yourself up for the day... NO POINT.. waste of time and effort.. simply voided of anything valid of purpose!

This topic irritates me. I would LOVE to know who the maker is!
 
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tvandeventer said:
Hi Mendezj,

This un-hardened damascus knife you have on order, did you know ahead of time that it was going to be delivered in a unfinished state? How did you find this out? And how many hundreds did you spend (you don't have to answer that but it certainly enters the scenario)?

Unless you completely agreed to accept and pay for the piece (it's not a knife) in this condition, you have every right to back out of the deal. If the maker knew the blade was not hardened, and did not volunteer this information, it's fraud plain and simple.

And what of the future of this piece? What if you someday want to sell, trade, or even give it away? What if you leave it in your will? IMO, ethically I don't think you can do any of those things. Or some sort of documentation would have to follow it until the end of time. It's a can of worms. In the spirit of character, integrity, honesty, and a love for the art, I would like to see such a piece destroyed. This is based on what I understand from you post.

Personally, I'd like to know exactly who this maker is, and the full story of why he thinks this is acceptable. Please understand that I am in no way disparaging you :). I just read your post over and over again, and that is what I came away with. If I read it wrong, sombody set me straight! Much of my time is spent in a state of rectal-cranial insertion :o and I often require a little guidance.

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS
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I'm not concerned about it. It is a pretty looking knife, and that's that. Besides, I use most of my knives on a regular basis (more than the average user maybe?), and I probably notice what many won't. I'm perfectly cool with the knife, I'm old enough to know that nothing or no one is perfect, and I take it all as part of the learning curve. And, as I pointed out, there is always the odd knife that won't reach your expectations.

Having said that, I think it is important for the trade in general, buyers and sellers, to know that one must keep high standards for the benefit of all. :thumbup:

In any case, we are presently living the Golden Age of knives. In my rather worthless opinion, you'll find today in the US the very best knives that have ever been built.
 
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