Custom knives same as semi production?

[QuietBearr]

So myself and someone on Youtube have been arguing about something. His handle on Youtube is Knivesandstuff. Mine is QuietBearr.

Here is our conversation. I want people from Bladeforums opinions:

A. Are semi-production knives and custom knives the same thing? Can a knife be both a semi production knife and a custom knife?

B. If you have a factory blank out the knife, pre grind it, heat treat it, then send it to you and you modify the scandi grind to a convex grind, and put the handles and bevel on it, is that a custom knife?

QuietBearr: So when are you going to start making your own knives?

knivesandstuff: I am making my own knives. This is it. just like the Hiker. I designed it. I get it laser cut. the only thing outsourced is the heattreating and pre-grind by svord. This is no different than any number of knifemakers who cnc mill their designs and ask Paul Bos to heat treat. Using an angle grinder and buying an oven doesn't make you more of a knife maker than ensuring the highest quality heat treats and shaping.

QuietBearr: Thats not what I am saying, dont get so defensive, no offense, but there is a difference between having it cut out and sent for heat treating, and having it cut, and the ground.

You are putting handles on it, and while you are making the handles, I was asking when we would see something that you made entirely. Many people have them cut out with laser or water, and that is highly debated even if that makes a custom knife. But you cant have someone else grind the blade and say that you made it.

knivesandstuff: Actually, I am not having someone else grind the knife. I am doing exactly what Bark River does. I am 80% pre-grinding on a surface grinder, then I convex blend. I am not being defensive, I am simply sick of people trying to define what hand made is, or made by me etc. Sorry QB, but I find you are wrong on all counts. I am making this knife. I designed it, I use machinery to do parts of the work, and I get it heattreated by svord. Its still made by me. Thanks.

QuietBearr: I didnt know that, as you said:

"the only thing outsourced is the heattreating and pre-grind by svord"

That means that you are just putting on the handles and the bevel. Pregrinding is grinding the blade.

So I assumed you designed it, the Svord cut it, pre ground it, heat treated it, sent it to you and you attached the handles and put on a bevel.

knivesandstuff: Well, I think you are starting to get the grasp of what Semi-Production knife making is all about "just putting on the handles" sounds like a means of belittling my skill as simply attaching prefabricated handles. This is 100% my knife and I am doing it in a way to make it affordable to people. End of story.

QuietBearr: All this arguing, when I asked when are you going to start making your own knives. And now you say you are making semi production knvies. Exactly, nothing wrong with it, I was asking when you where going to make a custom knife.

Nothing wrong with making semi custom knives. My question was, when are you going to make your own knives as in custom. You said you where. When you are not, you are making semi production knives, as you said.

knivesandstuff: Well, now we can argue about the definition of Custom, as opposed to hand forged? or hand ground. Again.. grounds for debate. Many Custom knives are CNC milled, or Laser cut. In a batch or one at a time means nothing to me. If I choose to make a one-of-a-kind custom knife I will still just Laser Cut the damn thing, and its still a custom knife made by me. We are arguing because you are trying to impose definitions on me that I disagree with. No harm no foul. No Anger.. Just a debate.

QuietBearr: I didnt say that custom couldnt be laser or CNC or waterjet cut, you just pulled that out of the air.

My question again, stop dodging, is are you planning on making any knives yourself as opposed to semi production knives?

I have no problem with semi production knives. My question was, and still is if you are planning on making any of your own?

Why are you bringing in all these debates as to what custom is when you admit you are not making custom knives, but semi production knives?

knivesandstuff: QB, I'm not dodging anything at all. Both the cKc Hiker, and this knife are Custom knives that I am producing. If you are asking when will I take someone elses design and make it for them.. Never. if you are asking when I will make one-off knives with no intention of making the same knife more than once. probably never. This is a CUSTOM KNIFE, I plan on making 120 of them they are all custom each one made to order. I'm not into making lots of various knives just for the sake of it.

knivesandstuff: I will add that there is nothing on earth that says a semi-production knife is not also a custom one. Just as Ranger knives now has ontario making production RD9s, if he makes an RD9 identical, its still a custom by his definition.
you keep asking if I am making any of my own. These are all my "OWN" and I am making all of them. The methods I am using to make them, and the quantity do not change the fact that I am the designer, and maker of the knife.

QuietBearr: I am sorry, but I have to say it is not a custom knife if you are having someone else do pre grinding. Yea maybe if you do cnc or laser or waterjet blanking, but not if you have them also do the pregrinding.

As you said they are semi production. It cant be both semi production and custom.

I am asking if you are every going to take a blank and grind it yourself into your own knife, series or one off.

You and Svord are the maker of the knife.

knivesandstuff: So lets get this straight. By your definition. I've I press the go button on a CNC mill and do the pregrind, its custom. If I pay someone else to push go on a machine, then its not custom? I'm sorry.. but you are simply adding your own interpretations to things. Its a 2mm Thick Scandi Grind that I am putting the convex on. End of story. Yes it can be semi-production and custom, again. interpretation. You are adding you own interpretation as fact. Well timed with your Custom knife making entry.

QuietBearr: has nothing to do with my knives, and again, I have no problem with CNC milling and custom knives, many people do but I dont.

But in no way can you have someone else do half the knifemaking and say that it is custom. If you want, lets ask other people, lets take it to bladeforums and ask people.

AGAIN I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH CNC MILLING AND CUSTOM KNIVES. My problem is that you are having someone else do the pregrinding, and that makes it not custom.

Might as well call spyderco custom then.

knivesandstuff: Pre-Grinding is a task any trained monkey can learn in 30 minutes. it is the actual knife design that makes a knife maker. its taking form and function to a level that satisfies the user instead of having a useless sharp chunk of steel. Dont try and say that if I dont spend 1 minute per blade holding it against a sander when I can put it on spinning discs for 10 seconds that I am not making a knife. it just sounds stupid.

knivesandstuff: I will also add that these are not American style Thick 1/4" chunks of steel that need huge surface grinds to remove lots of steel to save on Belts and time. These are 2mm thick scandis that I am putting the entire primary convex bevel on. The surface grind is a machine, not another person, which descales the blade to save me wasting time. You are arguing semantics to suit your own definitions for your new custom knife business. I'm tired. Take it up in your channel as a peeve.

So, any answers to my questions or comments on the argument? Here are my questions again:

A. Are semi-production knives and custom knives the same thing? Can a knife be both a semi production knife and a custom knife?

B. If you have a factory blank out the knife, pre grind it, heat treat it, then send it to you and you modify the scandi grind to a convex grind, and put the handles and bevel on it, is that a custom knife?

Thanks a lot guys.

 

[walleyeguy7]

ill admit it gets hazy at times, but custom vs production is pretty black and white to me. how i classify a knife has nothing to do with quality. a knife like a sebenza is a production knife just as a bark river, case, benchmade, or mantis is. if you start with a chunk of steel, hammer it out, grind it, and finish it thats a custom. if you start with a blank of steel, cut it, grind it, and finish its a custom. if you buy a pre cut, pre ground, pre heat treated blade, and then finish it, its not custom. its just a modified production blade. if your term for that is 'semi-custom' than so be it, i dont like that term.

 

[kungfucowboy]

I would think custom is made to order production or handmade.

i would think handmade could be divided into different levels

1)Nobody but me and God: sole authorship.
you smelt your own steel from iron ore and a source of carbon that you pulled out of the earth yourself, cut the handle from the tree, cow, ect. forge the steel into shape heat treat yourself, make the pins from copper nuggets, etc

2) reasonable definition: sole authorship
you start with what we would genrally consider raw materials,bar(round)stock, pin stock a block or wood horn, (self made?)micarta. shape using hand tools (hammer, files) or a grinder heat treat the thing yourself and do all the finishing your self.

3)everything in reasonable definition: sole authorship everything except automated blanking to your design.

4) everything in reasonable definition: sole authorship everything except heat treat.

5)everything in reasonable definition: sole authorship everything except heat treat and automated blanking

6)hand finishing of 80% blanks like the above guy is doing

7)putting handles on a pre-finished blade.

all of the above are handmade in some way as long as the seller clarifies what steps who did i'm happy.

also keep in mind these stages shouldn't be considered discrete, the you could have a 1.2 or 5.6 or whatever depending on billions of variables.

 

[KyleyHarris]

Well, I am KnivesAndStuff, for any who dont know.

I'll make my take on it real simple. Because I dont expect someone to enter into one of my channel posts, and detract from my video and then post it all here using names and such when its not necessary for the discussion.

Every single maker (it is completely irrelevant that its knives) has their own definition of what they consider a custom product.

I'm simple. The dictionary definition if a Custom made product is made specially for individuals There are also synonyms such as made to order.

So.. lets be clear on what I do.

I using my computer, and my own hands, created a design for a knife. I arranged for a company to laser cut blanks of my design. These are very thin knives 2mm which are scandi grind ( a flat sheet steel except for the final single convex bevel)

Svord NZ, Heat treats the blanks, and then passes them through a surface grinder to de-scale the blades. (Why.. because its time saving monkey work.)

I then receive my knives that I designed in bulk heat treated and ready for me to complete my work as a knife maker.

I do not make all the knives and then put them up for sale. I make each knife as ordered and there for they are custom. Each knife is subject to the individual owner requesting specific features to suit them on blade shape, grind thicknesses etc. But the reality is that most people take the knife with my default design because they like it, its well though out and it works.

Custom has nothing to do with the manufacturing process at all. This is word-play by people over the years to satisfy marketing techniques and to make certain types of manufacturing seem more special....

Production companies like spyderco are manufacturing bulk knives without knowing or caring about the end buyer, and the end buyer has no ability to change anything. these are not custom. if someone like spyderco makes 2000 knives for a specific customer at request, then these are all custom knives for that client who ordered them. Volume has no bearing on the meaning of the word.

its tiring that an industry tries to use wordplay instead of english. Each individual maker of anyproduct can clearly define what they think is custom/or not.. doesn't change the meaning of the word or its correct useage.

I am the designer, I arrange and do all the work of making my knives. and they are custom by definition of how I deal and interact with my (custom)ers.

This is a good topic, but childish in the extreme to raise it via a video and public post using my name and quotes for what is a generic debate.

 

[KyleyHarris]

6)hand finishing of 80% blanks like the above guy is doing

You made good points. This one is especially relevant. There is a difference between going to knifekits and buying a blank and finishing it off and what I do.

the difference being that I designed this knife, and I arrange for it to be made. The surface grinding is not like you see with 1/4" flat grind knives. this is a 1.6mm knife with a scandi convex. there is no pre-grind removing tons of metal.. its descaling.

Also. how many knifemakers in USA buy handle kits precut? I take a block of wood and a bandsaw and cut all my handles from scratch. To each maker is an opinion.

But to come to one persons location and vent that they are not doing it honesty or correctly is just disparagement. Especially when my whole youtube channel is about an open and public communication of how and what I do.

Anyway.. its all I have to say on the matter.

 

[QuietBearr]

But to come to one persons location and vent that they are not doing it honesty or correctly is just disparagement. Especially when my whole youtube channel is about an open and public communication of how and what I do.

Lets be real here, i didnt start venting, I was just inquiring with my original post if you had any plans to start making your own knives, as in not having a factory doing all the "monkey work".

Half of making a knife by stock removal is monkey work. Lets face it, the basics, heat treating aside, is easy, and monkey work through and through. The basics are that is. Advanced stuff takes skill, as does forging. But stock removal knifemaking is not all that hard, if you are not heat treating your own knives.

I dont care if a custom maker has blanks cut with CNC or water or lasers. I dont care if they send them out for heat treating. But you are having half the work done by a factory, then calling them custom.

They are semi custom at best, and better described as mods. Just like a lot of custom makers got their start making knives from modified other knives, such as a maker taking an Old Hickory knife and modifing the design. That is modification, not custom work.

Taking a knife that is 50% done already and finishing it does not a custom knife make.

And I dont know where you get that a semi-production and a custom knife are the same thing. They are just not. One is semi-production, and one is custom.

As to what you said here:

Just as Ranger knives now has ontario making production RD9s, if he makes an RD9 identical, its still a custom by his definition.

Yes that one Ranger knife made by the maker is a custom, the ones made by ontario are production. You cant draw any lines between what you do and what he does. As he would not get it half done by Ontario and then finish it.

So according to you, if I where to buy a knife kit, and then put on my own handle scales, and change it from a flat grind to a convex, it would be a custom knife?

Because most knife kits come with a blade that is not sharpened, but pre ground a certain way, and without finished handle scales, no holes drilled or to shape. You have to take the blade, regrind it to a convex, hand polish it, drill holes in the scales and attach them. So I guess, all it takes to make a custom knife is to change the grind on any knife and resharpen it?

 

[KyleyHarris]

As he would not get it half done by Ontario and then finish it.

Actually.. yes, Justin does. You need to stop venting your opinions as facts and stop being a public asshat.

everything you are emphatically stating is with half knowledge and half truths to try and push your very limited understandings on other people. get a dictionary man.

and lay of the pipe.

 

[DennisStrickland]

the important point is not the sematics but the quality. if the product is quality at a good price then it's a decent buy.no need to get into a spitting contest, we all know the difference from a bagwell & errickson contrasted to a henry or shratt & morgan.

 

[orthogonal1]

I find most "custom" knives are actually "mid-tech" these days.

But what else can one expect? Few makers can charge what it would take to live on an output of only a few knives made a month and there is the issue of people expecting a model to not only be similar within the model, but be close to identical.

 

[LX_Emergency]

I'd say that having someone else do all the "hard work" and then finishing up would make something a "customised" knife.


Not a custom work.

 

[KyleyHarris]

I'd say that having someone else do all the "hard work" and then finishing up would make something a "customised" knife.


Not a custom work.

I would say that the hard work is designing the knife and making sure its fit for purpose for the 1 person, or wide audience intended. Architiects, engineers, designers.. hard work.. Brick Layers, nail bashers.. not so hard.

I designed it.. its my knife. it works for the people that want it. I use machines and cost cutting to lower the price not the quality.

I would say anybody can take a piece of steel, shape it to something, put it in coals, and cool it down and put a handle on with no skill at all and have the rudiments of a knife. but without the design there is nothing really.

What makes all the great knifemakers around here special is the knives they design. not how they make them. otherwise there would only be one model of knife.

As far as cutom goes. it relates only to how you relate to the customer. if you make a knife, no matter how special or unique, without a customer then it was only produced. its a production knife. even if only one. However, if you make the knife after a cutomer requests it, with or without extra tailoring to suit his/her needs then you have made a custom knife.

As for the BenchMade/ Spyderco issue. they make 1000 knives without a customer and hope to sell them.. this is production. One customer comes to them and askes for a model with purple/blue handles and they make 1000 identical knives. This is a custom knife order. they are custom knives for that customer.

Thats my take anyway. I'm simple.. i stick to what Oxford or Collins tell me.

 

[LX_Emergency]

I would say that the hard work is designing the knife and making sure its fit for purpose for the 1 person, or wide audience intended. Architiects, engineers, designers.. hard work.. Brick Layers, nail bashers.. not so hard.

WRONG!

Architects, engineers, designers....difficult work maybe yes, on a higher intellectual level maybe, yes.

But hard....not automatically. I'd say most bricklayers, and carpenters (or nail-bashers as you so poorly call them) work at least as hard or often harder than the architects, engineers and designers do.

Besides that, designing a scandi-bushcraft type knife is hardly on the same level as designing a building now is it?

What you call "monkey-work" Is what I call hard work, it's called elbow grease. And I'm sure there are plenty of people here on the board that make custom knives that do put in the "monkey work" themselves that will be happy to hear that you have such high respect for all the hard work that they put in.

 

[KyleyHarris]

WRONG!

Architects, engineers, designers....difficult work maybe yes, on a higher intellectual level maybe, yes.

But hard....not automatically. I'd say most bricklayers, and carpenters (or nail-bashers as you so poorly call them) work at least as hard or often harder than the architects, engineers and designers do.

Besides that, designing a scandi-bushcraft type knife is hardly on the same level as designing a building now is it?

What you call "monkey-work" Is what I call hard work, it's called elbow grease. And I'm sure there are plenty of people here on the board that make custom knives that do put in the "monkey work" themselves that will be happy to hear that you have such high respect for all the hard work that they put in.

Well that is a distinction on what is hard work then. I respect all the knifemakers because of the thoughtfulness that goes into the work. Imagination is the hardwork. Elbow grease is tiring and hard yes. Are you telling me that if you are a nail basher by trade you would refuse a nail gun? And for sure at a certain level it is something only a few skilled craftsmen can achieve, and that is what you pay big money for. Nail Bashers is derogatory sure, and said so to make a point. not to knock any particular person.

You could also say that a person laying roads works hard.. but its the person that invented roads that had the idea.. a road looks pretty simple doesn't it? kind of like a scandi knife.. real simple.. but for a damn long time people suffered with inadequate roads and lots of hard work.

You say its not as hard as designing a building .. but hey.. any design that becomes timeless requires great throught. the most complex ideas often appear the most simple when you look at the end result.

my point about nail bashers, is not referring to skilled crafstmen, but literally to bash in a nail.. or use a nail gun. just like heat treating, or getting a digital oven that rings a bell when its ready.. this is not "hard work"

Grinding a bevel on a knife is not "hard" its effort. This is not the same as say Jerry Hossum putting hand finished hollow grinds.

please dont twist my words into a claim of knocking knife makers.

 

[elpidi0526]

What you call "monkey-work" Is what I call hard work, it's called elbow grease. And I'm sure there are plenty of people here on the board that make custom knives that do put in the "monkey work" themselves that will be happy to hear that you have such high respect for all the hard work that they put in.

I'm almost 110% positive that what Kyley was trying to say was that the skill set to drive in a nail isn't as difficultly acquired as that to design what the nails are holding up.

No one's denying that the assembling of knives and putting in a little "elbow grease" isn't hard work. What Kyley is oh-so-obviously saying is that without a good design, no amount of elbow grease will rectify a crappy finished product.

 

[KyleyHarris]

Yes, thanks for simplifying it.

The reality is, there are knives that are good design that stick around for hundreds of years. and there can be knives that are amazing works of art, and highly skilled with amazing looks that last only a year or two and dissapear..

Why? price? quality? not fit for purpose? Do you buy a knife for looks, or because it does what a knife should do. These days where knives are not key to survival I guess its become both. Some people like to design, some people like the elbow grease.. some like both.. In all areas they are knife makers to 1 degree or another.

There are many many knife makers, and not all are successful. there are many knife designs some better than others.

I wont ever know if mine is good or bad without feedback.. and neither will anyone else. if people stop buying them.. then it probably sucked

 

[YFN667]

the way i think of this is like this. If Benchmade sent a Griptilian to Knifecenter or newgraham and it was dissaasembled and new graham or knifecenter assemebled it its still a griptilian and it doesnt make the knife special or custom in any way. But I think the new bushcraft model i will definately be trying out when available and i really could care less if they are semi custom or custom.

 

[hardheart]

I do not believe that Kershaw knives with the Snap-on logo, or a Benchmade Ares with Leupold on the blade are customs, to each his own.

 

[_habit_]

I would say that the hard work is designing the knife and making sure its fit for purpose for the 1 person, or wide audience intended. Architiects, engineers, designers.. hard work.. Brick Layers, nail bashers.. not so hard.

I designed it.. its my knife. it works for the people that want it. I use machines and cost cutting to lower the price not the quality.

I would say anybody can take a piece of steel, shape it to something, put it in coals, and cool it down and put a handle on with no skill at all and have the rudiments of a knife. but without the design there is nothing really.

What makes all the great knifemakers around here special is the knives they design. not how they make them. otherwise there would only be one model of knife.

As far as cutom goes. it relates only to how you relate to the customer. if you make a knife, no matter how special or unique, without a customer then it was only produced. its a production knife. even if only one. However, if you make the knife after a cutomer requests it, with or without extra tailoring to suit his/her needs then you have made a custom knife.

As for the BenchMade/ Spyderco issue. they make 1000 knives without a customer and hope to sell them.. this is production. One customer comes to them and askes for a model with purple/blue handles and they make 1000 identical knives. This is a custom knife order. they are custom knives for that customer.

Thats my take anyway. I'm simple.. i stick to what Oxford or Collins tell me.

I agree with all of this. Custom means it was made specifically to order, doesn't matter who made it or how, really. Production was just something made to be sold to whomever.

Handmade I look at as being something where attention and intention when making are more important than the tools. Computer tools and such are just an evolution, ultimately, of a piece of sandpaper, or a hacksaw or whatever.

I do not believe that Kershaw knives with the Snap-on logo, or a Benchmade Ares with Leupold on the blade are customs, to each his own.

I think that in regards to that, Snap-On aren't buying them as customs, as they're not so much the final customer as a middleman. They're having Kershaw make a variant of a production model en masse so they can then sell them as they think people will buy them.

 

[hardheart]

I think that in regards to that, Snap-On aren't buying them as customs, as they're not so much the final customer as a middleman. They're having Kershaw make a variant of a production model en masse so they can then sell them as they think people will buy them.

Yes, but that was in regard to this statement

One customer comes to them and askes for a model with purple/blue handles and they make 1000 identical knives. This is a custom knife order. they are custom knives for that customer.

I would call that a special order, 'custom' means something different in my observation.

 

[pvicenzi]

Custom? Hand made? The terms are so often mis-used that they have little meaning. Some use the term "custom" to mean a knife that is produced by hand in a workshop. Others say a true custom is a knife that is uniquely made for the customer, which can mean an assembly line produced knife with your name engraved by the manufacturer is more of a custom knife than a completely hand made knife that is a standard model. Randall made knives seem to fall right in the middle of the argument. Are they hand made, or are they production? Personaally, I'll let others decide what the terms mean and enjoy all my knives based on their own qualities and I won't worry about wheather they are custom or not.