Custom knives same as semi production?

Based on some of the descriptions of "custom" I can infer that some of my Bark River knives are customs. They bring in blanks that are heat treated, grind them and affix handles to them. I can request a certain handle material, I can provide my own handle material and in some cases (Journeyman) request my own handle shape. In my mind these are semi-custom knives made to the highest of standards.

I also possess several "custom" kniives that have been made from "raw" material, HT in house, and finished by the maker. One maker, one knife.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "semi-custom" knives, the finished product has been completed by a few people but is still a fine product.

I just think it is somewhat of an insult to the makers that do all of the processes in house to call anything else a true custom knife.
 
jvan said:
Based on some of the descriptions of "custom" I can infer that some of my Bark River knives are customs. They bring in blanks that are heat treated, grind them and affix handles to them. I can request a certain handle material, I can provide my own handle material and in some cases (Journeyman) request my own handle shape. In my mind these are semi-custom knives made to the highest of standards.

I also possess several "custom" kniives that have been made from "raw" material, HT in house, and finished by the maker. One maker, one knife.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with "semi-custom" knives, the finished product has been completed by a few people but is still a fine product.

I just think it is somewhat of an insult to the makers that do all of the processes in house to call anything else a true custom knife.
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Jvan, those are fair comments. but again it comes down to people redefining the meaning of custom away from the actual words usage in common english.

On Jerry Hossums website he likens a true custom (by his opinion) as being like a well fitted and tailored suit. Made to measure for the customer. In this case we would have to say that unless you meet the maker so that he can truly measure you up and get the handle to fit you exactly then its still not a custom knife.. just a handmade knife.. This is why there is so much ambiguity.. because people are redefining a well defined word. By This rekoning, it is not important if the knife is done by hand, or machine, or parts are outsourced or not. the important factor by his definition is that it was made to fit the customers unique needs and physical attributes... Now.. if you are going to redefine the word then this is a more reasonable approach to say that you actually did something custom for a customer.. otherwise its just another quality, well made knife that someone buys.

I dont think one knife maker can insult another by choosing to satisfy his customers on a one-to-one basis like I do?

How would it appear if I choose to start making all my knives by hand, using only hand tools and a coal furnace, and shaped everything by file and sandpaper.. I could make the same identical knife for 20 times the cost.. Would it be fair to then claim that I am insulted by all the people claiming to be making knives when they cheat and use an electric slackbelt sander to convex and edge, or a grinder to hollow grind? no.. Each maker does what they can to make a knife for their customers.. anyone that claims insult by anothers makers work is really just creating propaganda to inflate their own skills for sales. (I have rarely, if ever, seen any knifeamaker act like this and be insulted)
 
QuietBearr said:
I agree man, heat treating is the only basic skill in basic stock removal that is hard, that is why so many people outsource it to professionals. Like Loveless, even he didnt heat treat his own 154CM blades.
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This was a pretty interesting thread. I found a lot of good, well thought out opinions here. Anybody wanna give me their take on whether or not the knives that; according to QuietBearr, Loveless had someone else heat treat would be considered "CUSTOM" or not? I have my own thoughts about that: You border on sacrilege if you respond in the negative.

Anybody want to venture an opinion? ;)

KyleyHarris & QuietBearr: As a "CUSTOMER" I reserve the right to call anything I buy CUSTOM or not. Doesn't matter what anyone else says about it ... I have the final determination about it.

Larry
 
So here we are again with the quiet bear not being so quiet. First of all that quietbear dude unlike an adult loves to start arguments and then he just keeps beating things into the ground even when he was wrong. Then he goes and makes a video about a good friend of mine's work and posts it on youtube. And then gets his feelings hurt and deletes it after some of his subscribers told him he was a d**k ( which I agree with wholeheartedly ) and to add further to his PMS ing felame tendencies , he has to take it a step further and also put it all in quotes on Bladeforums. Like I told you before Mr.Quiet Bearr in a message which I don't blame you for not responding to after I nailed your silly ass to the floor boards , I think you probably spent maybe 2 yeas of the 23 years of your puny insignificant existence on my planet collecting knives and information from the internet and now you think you know all the answers. You just don't get it that half the crap you read is posted by knife manufacturers and sellers LOL , do you think for one second in that reptilian brain of yours that any one of them are going to say anything negitave about their products ? Your like a internet primate , monkey read monkey quote. I have much respect for guys like Jeff ( cutlerylover ) because in his videos he's actually working and testing the cutlery and showing various tasks , all I ever see behind you in your videos are bookshelves and a retarded E cigarette. Do us all a favor , close your accounts and drop off the face of the earth. :jerkit:
 
EZ Cad Blades said:
Anybody wanna give me their take on whether or not the knives that; according to QuietBearr, Loveless had someone else heat treat
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In How to Make KNives by Robert Loveless he states that when he worked with 154CM he always sent the knives out for professional heat treating, as it is to hard to heat treat yourself. I think he sent it to Pacific something or another. I can find it in the book and they are still around, I checked a while back, if anyone wants to know I can find the place. Just some info for that piece of information.

And yea I do consider them custom.
 
If the maker does anything in the manufacturing of the knife, to the customer's specification or request, then it is a custom knife. Why are we all having to weigh in on the dictionary meaning of common, not "custom", words??
 
Im with kyley on this, if they are made to his request and he finishes them they are IMO custom knives. QB didnt you JUST start making knives? seems to me as if you are trying to put yourself above kyley because you cut and ground it yourself.
 
"Custom" is such an all encompassing term that maybe we should just use "sole authorship" and whatever term you want to use for a knife made with the input of multiple talents.

Hey, they're all good, let's enjoy them.
 
KyleyHarris said:
Custom is a defined word that has a meaning. Its quite clear. this is why we have dictionaries. Custom, Customer? clear?
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I see where you're going with this and you have somewhat of a point. However language is also context dependant. And within the context of knifemaking when you change something that has already been produced you don't "Create" it. You "Customise" it. It's the same within a lot of other industries.

Rollerblading, car building, gun building etc etc.

I asked my wife what she thought trying to bring it in an as neutral manner as I could.

I told her: Someone has someone else make the blades and heat treat them, then he places the handles on them and finishes the grind, would you consider this a custom knife.

She said, sometimes yes, if it's the only one of it's kind produced.

Then I said: Imagine someone having LOT's of the same model made, and then finishing them up in the way I previously mentioned, is it still a custom?

She thought no. She's not the big authority. But the dictionary isn't either. Language is defined by society, not the other way around. A number of years ago the word gay meant happy, now it means homosexual. And yet, in the dictionary the "happy" meaning is still to be found.


Referring to the dictionary is like saying "it's on TV so it must be true."




The word "custom" can have all sorts of meanings. And if you feel fine in using it on your products, that's fine. That's your right. Just like it's my right to tell you that I disagree.
 
theamazingdrew said:
Im with kyley on this, if they are made to his request and he finishes them they are IMO custom knives. QB didnt you JUST start making knives? seems to me as if you are trying to put yourself above kyley because you cut and ground it yourself.
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That has nothing to do with it, and wasnt my intent at all. I simply asked if he was ever going to make any of his own, as in my definition of custom, and he said that these where his. To my understanding of his knives this didnt fit. Read the converstation.
 
Hard question because everybody has their opinion on what's a custom knife and it seems like most of them are not in agreement.
 
QuietBearr said:
.... I simply asked if he was ever going to make any of his own, as in my definition of custom, ...
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That's just it....it wasn't a simple question. It was a bit of an underhanded comment (intentional or not). One can easily interpret in a myriad of ways and he took offense to it (and I can't say I blame him).
 
i stand by my original statement. having made a knife with dave larsen, ill tell you that getting a jewel like finish on your blade, bolsters, scales, tang, and pins can be grueling, but its not as if the hikers f&f is good in the first place. grinding is also close to half the work, and frustration. personally, i believe a hand ground blade is the highest form of art offered by a custom knife, even more so than the finishing and design. the heat treat is also a form of art. sending off to paul bos is like sending your unfired pottery off to be fired by someone else, and assuming itll be fine because they use precision urns and have fired two million pots. even cutting the blank out, drilling all the holes (especially if you have 12-40 pins in the handle...) is all art when done by hand. the slightest mistake in cutting the blade and/or grinding can drastically affect the blades shape, length, and balance; not to mention trying to get the plunge to be perfect. those are some of my thoughts.

edit: not to take away anything from kyleys product. its a unique and functional knife the way he thinks a knife of that size should be, at a good price. thin, convex, carbon steel blade with full tang and wood handles with a high quality sheath. in my opinion not custom, but the quality and function are identical regardless.
 
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walleyeguy7 said:
i stand by my original statement. having made a knife with dave larsen, ill tell you that getting a jewel like finish on your blade, bolsters, scales, tang, and pins can be grueling, but its not as if the hikers f&f is good in the first place. grinding is also close to half the work, and frustration. personally, i believe a hand ground blade is the highest form of art offered by a custom knife, even more so than the finishing and design. the heat treat is also a form of art. sending off to paul bos is like sending your unfired pottery off to be fired by someone else, and assuming itll be fine because they use precision urns and have fired two million pots. even cutting the blank out, drilling all the holes (especially if you have 12-40 pins in the handle...) is all art when done by hand. the slightest mistake in cutting the blade and/or grinding can drastically affect the blades shape, length, and balance; not to mention trying to get the plunge to be perfect. those are some of my thoughts.

edit: not to take away anything from kyleys product. its a unique and functional knife the way he thinks a knife of that size should be, at a good price. thin, convex, carbon steel blade with full tang and wood handles with a high quality sheath. in my opinion not custom, but the quality and function are identical regardless.
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Hey Walley, I agree with a lot of what you say when you take knifemaking as an art. I'm not making art knives. I am making functional tools. I intentionally cut corners on what you'd call the artistic side to keep a price that people can afford in this day an age. I'm no Artist, and dont have the skill to do what Artistic knifemakers do. But we can also agree I think that there are many Artistic knives around that we love to own that dont function well as knives.

It is the people that can take Art and Function to the higher level that are the true masters of the craft.... but most people only want, and can only afford a knife.. not a piece of art.
 
LX_Emergency said:
The word "custom" can have all sorts of meanings. And if you feel fine in using it on your products, that's fine. That's your right. Just like it's my right to tell you that I disagree.
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Thank you.. This is my point entirely. the word is subjective as all heck. and at the end of the day, it is only of meaning between myself, and my customers.

It is not the right of any other person or maker to come and insist the my product is not something.... I never do that to others.

The other main thing that seems to get confused here is that people are likening what I do to going to knifekits and ordering 100 blades and bits and fitting them together and saying they are my knife.. This is where I take the greatest offense.


I spent a year spending thousands of my money buying others knives trying to find a knife that worked for my needs. I eventually gave up and spent a lot of time thinking over and designing my knife using a svord blade as a basic template. I then with a hell of a lot of hard work made and sold 20 blades. I then talked with Svord, and got them to agree to heat treat my design that I provided to them. This is not the same as going and getting someone elses product.. Its kind of like insisting that a Strider is actually a Paul Bos Knife because he stamped his name on the blades.. All it is really is a visual recognition that part of a process was done by someone you can trust. Outsourcing and manufacturing methods are not related to Customness.

I take a plank of wood 6"x2" x 12 foot and I hand cut every single wood scale myself, and then fit them and shape them exactly to my design. I dont pre-order little rectangles.. so I do a hell of a lot of 'monkey work' myself.. I only do that for ONE reason. its the best way to keep the price low for my customers. If i could pay someone to make my scales cheaper.. just like laser cutting.. just like most knife makers in USA.. I'd do that too.. its still mine.

QuietBear started with "when am I making my OWN knife" implying that these are kitsets and not mine.. that was the insult. He pulled custom into it later. at which point I clearly said that this is another debate. He was trying to force feed his opinion on me rather than accepting my definition and making a choice.

Lets be really clear. QuietBear has never bought my knife, dont think he ever intended to. the only reason for him to take this public in the first place in my channel was to force feed his idea on me, and my subscribers to try and make himself look good. Starting with his insistance on how i refer to the use of the word Choil.

Anyone is welcome to LOOK AT ANY OF MY VIDEOS from day one of my project. I have NEVER EVER referred to what I do as a custom knife. I have always explicitly stated on video that I "hand make a knife of my design that is laser cut, then heat treated by Svord and then completed by me"

but when put on the spot by an idiot I will certainly say that any of my knives are only made and sold to a customer, and that when those customers ask for little changes to the sheath, handle or blade then they are my custom knives. my intellectual property, and my work.

Thanks everyone.
 
EZ Cad Blades said:
KyleyHarris & QuietBearr: As a "CUSTOMER" I reserve the right to call anything I buy CUSTOM or not. Doesn't matter what anyone else says about it ... I have the final determination about it.

Larry
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Larry, I wanted to reply to this and forgot. I think your right as the customer is as good as any definition. If you or anyone requests a knife from me that was not already produced (Made to order) then I dont mind if you call it custom, production, mid-tech, low-tech, anytech.. its the least important issue and only relevant to Sales. the word custom is being used as a selling technique to increase price or add merit to something. Quality speaks for itself, be it dressed in gold, or rags. The end user of the knife is the one that needs to be satisfied, not the maker. (but I take great satisfaction in my humble little project)

All I care about is that you are happy with the tool I provide you, and are happy with what you get for the price you paid. Mostly I am happy if you are having fun, and I am having fun.. because thats what knives are about for most of us.
 
For me, CUSTOM means made to my particular specifications (or somebody else's). Even if it's as simple as "make me a knife like this one, but shorten the blade 1/4 inch and add a little more belly."

Next, regarding being a knife maker: if you don't shape and grind your own blades, you're not a knife maker. You may be a knife designer; you may be a knife assembler. But you're certainly NOT a knife MAKER. I don't care how good the end product is; you DIDN'T actually MAKE it YOURSELF. I'm not saying you have to do it entirely by hand using ancient techniques, either. Feel free to use any power tools and machinery you want. But if you don't do it yourself, you're just not a knife maker.

Sorry if that offends anybody, but that's the way it is.
 
KyleyHarris said:
Larry, I wanted to reply to this and forgot. I think your right as the customer is as good as any definition. If you or anyone requests a knife from me that was not already produced (Made to order) then I dont mind if you call it custom, production, mid-tech, low-tech, anytech.. its the least important issue and only relevant to Sales. the word custom is being used as a selling technique to increase price or add merit to something. Quality speaks for itself, be it dressed in gold, or rags. The end user of the knife is the one that needs to be satisfied, not the maker. (but I take great satisfaction in my humble little project)

All I care about is that you are happy with the tool I provide you, and are happy with what you get for the price you paid. Mostly I am happy if you are having fun, and I am having fun.. because thats what knives are about for most of us.
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KyleyHarris,
If you were to check my profile you may not find much info there, but you will find that I work as an Outside Salesman. I am 100% in agreement
that anyone may refer to a "product" (be it a knife, or what have you) by whatever word/description they choose and it honestly makes little difference in the end ... only closing the sale with a satisfied customer matters. Period. ;)

Larry
 
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