Custom knives same as semi production?

[dinozzo]

i dont have too much experience in this area, but what custom means to me is made just the way i want it, different than anyother design. Hand made to me means its in the makers hands the whole time. As in a machine doenst touch it without the maker holding it in someway...If that makes sense. Theres nothing wrong with what Kyley does, its just not "custom" IMO.

Also I dont think it was cool of quietbearr to post names and vent...

 

[LX_Emergency]

my point about nail bashers, is not referring to skilled crafstmen, but literally to bash in a nail.. or use a nail gun. just like heat treating, or getting a digital oven that rings a bell when its ready.. this is not "hard work"


please dont twist my words into a claim of knocking knife makers.

I'm not. All I'm saying is that by claiming that heat-treat and grinding/shaping are "monkey work" you ARE knocking a lot of very talented and very hard working knife makers on this forum, both professional and hobbyist.

In the end everyone has their own definition of "custom" mine is someone who does as much on a knife as he possibly can is a custom maker.

I do my own heat treats except for when I use a stainless because I don't have the money to buy equipment for it.

Everything other than that is my work.

Some people call CRK's custom knives....are they? Not to me but they are to them. That's fine with me.

I'm sure your knives are fine, that's not the point. And if you keep your customers happy, that's great! Both for you and them.

However in my personal vocabulary someone who doesn't shape their own steel isn't a custom maker.

He's a maker of customised knives. And that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

There was a time when a knife was either sole authorship or run off a factory production line. With the availability of out-sourcing some operations and high-tech machinery for the individual knifemaker, we have different degrees of mid-tech knives.

What a knifemaker has to do is communicate clearly with his customer, how much of the work is done outside his shop, how much he does by machine, how much he does manually. It is no longer as easy as putting a word to it, whether custom, mid-tech, semi-custom or whatever buzzword we think will better sell the finished product.

Chris Reeve knives are accepted as production knives, yet he does more work in-house than some people who would like to call their work custom. The degree of unique touches on the finished product will satisfy some as custom and will not satisfy others. Just don't think that a personal understanding of the meaning of a word is necessarily what others will accept.

 

[jbombelli]

To me, if somebody ELSE grinds out the blade, and does the heat treat, YOU (or in this case the other guy) didn't make the knife. You may have designed it, but you didn't MAKE it.

If you draw up blueprints for a house, and then hire contractors to do 99% of the work, and then you lay out the carpet and hang drapes on all the windows, are you going to walk around and say *I* built that house?


The grind and the heat treat are the most important parts. There's a reason people outsource that. They can't do it. Hence they're not knife MAKERS they're knife ASSEMBLERS.

 

[_habit_]

To me, if somebody ELSE grinds out the blade, and does the heat treat, YOU (or in this case the other guy) didn't make the knife. You may have designed it, but you didn't MAKE it.

If you draw up blueprints for a house, and then hire contractors to do 99% of the work, and then you lay out the carpet and hang drapes on all the windows, are you going to walk around and say *I* built that house?


The grind and the heat treat are the most important parts. There's a reason people outsource that. They can't do it. Hence they're not knife MAKERS they're knife ASSEMBLERS.

I would agree that a maker should do the grinding themselves, but I'm not so sure about the heat-treat, just based on what my understanding of a heat-treat is (seems like simply put, you put the blades in a kiln and there's not much hands on involved - I know there's more to it otherwise you wouldn't have HT experts like Bos, but still).

Also I think perhaps people are kind of minimizing the importance of the handle, particularly on a folder. The handle is half the knife.

But to me... if they had the blade laser cut to shape, then ground it out themselves, made and shaped the handle themselves, again laser cutting is fine, and they put all the finishing touches on it, then to ME it is "custom" as custom has kind of been defined, and I look at it as handmade. But it isn't the true definition of custom unless it was made specifically for an individual to their tastes.

I think really we need new terms for these kinds of things, as very little is truly handmade these days - and really, there's no need for it, as you can make things to a finer degree with use of more advanced tools.

Basically my summation is "Attention and intention."

 

[CountyRat]

Part of the debate seems to revolve around the fact that a knife maker can have an outside party do some of the fabricating for him or her. Does this mean that the knife is no longer a "custom knife?" How about this: what if, instead of paying an outside company to do part of the work, a knife maker hired an assistant and instructed him or her to do some of the work a certain way, and then hand it to the knife maker who would do the rest of the work. Is the knife not custom because the knifemaker's employee did some of the work? I don't think so. Now, instead of having an employee, what if the knifemaker outsources some of the work (because it is simpler and cheaper to do so than hire an employee), tells the outsourced worker what to do, then gets the work back and does the rest of the work and finishes the knife. Is it now not a "custom knife?" Again, I don't think so. I just don't see any difference.

Final metaphor: I decide to write a book. However, I don't like to type very much, so I hire someone, dictate my book, and as I dictate, he or she types it out. Then, I take all the pages and send them to a publisher who publishes the book. Now someone comes along and says, "you are not really an author," or, "that isn't really a unique book because you did not perform every step in the writing process yourself." Again, I do not see a difference.

 

[QuietBearr]

Actually.. yes, Justin does. You need to stop venting your opinions as facts and stop being a public asshat.

everything you are emphatically stating is with half knowledge and half truths to try and push your very limited understandings on other people. get a dictionary man.

and lay of the pipe.

That is a total false statement. He most certainly does not start with a half finished blank from Ontario, that my friend is an outright lie. What he does is he keeps the design, then does all the elbow grease or "monkey work" himself. From beginning to end, he does it all.

And for one, you are making the design out to be all so hard and everything. Please dude, its pencil and paper, or some cad work. Please dude, nothing in basic knife making (stock removal that is) is hard.

From design, to hoging out the blade (something you dont do), to putting the relief edges (another thing you dont do), to changing the blade grinds, to putting on and shaping the handle. Nothing is hard work in the basics (except heat treating). Its all something that a 12 year old in China could do (wait, dont they?).

But we are getting away from the questions. Again these are the questions:

A. Are semi-production knives and custom knives the same thing (as knivesandstuff claims? Can a knife be both a semi production knife and a custom knife?

B. If you have a factory blank out the knife, pre grind it, heat treat it, then send it to you and you modify the scandi grind to a convex grind, and put the handles and bevel on it, is that a custom knife?

I just dont see how if I change the grind on a knife, and change it from scandi to convex (which isnt hard by the way), put on the handle and do some sanding, that it is a custom job. Nothing is hard in basic knifemaking, and if you are going to claim custom on something simple like the basic knife, then you at least have to do all the grunt work, not just 20% of it.

 

[QuietBearr]

I'm not. All I'm saying is that by claiming that heat-treat and grinding/shaping are "monkey work"

I agree man, heat treating is the only basic skill in basic stock removal that is hard, that is why so many people outsource it to professionals. Like Loveless, even he didnt heat treat his own 154CM blades.

Also I dont think it was cool of quietbearr to post names and vent...

I dont see the problem posting names, and I am not venting either. I just think its BS what he is doing. Until now he has always claimed that he makes custom knives, and I didnt start all this with the intention of having it go this way.

To me the knives he made where not custom, and I thought that he knew it, as when someone (I guess I cant say names on bladeforums) did a review of it he called it a semi-custom knife. ALl I did was ask if he was going to make any custom knives.

Then all of a sudden he claims that they are custom and completely his. Well that is what started it. And he claims that a semi production and a custom knife are one in the same. I just cant let that happen.

As for the names, we are both out there with videos, and I didnt think that if we could show our faces in videos, that it would matter if I used our handles in a post. Let the chips fall where they may, if I am way off base here I will apologise, admit I am wrong and leave it at that, but it appears to me that most people here do not think the opinions I have are wrong.

I would say that the hard work is designing the knife

Maybe if you where designing the first knife ever seen by humans, but come on, the standard knife designs, like a bushcrafter (no I am not referring to yours, I am referring to the standard knife pattern known as a bushcrafter, yours or anyones), have little alterations from the norm. Same with a standard clip point, or spear point, or whatever. There are certain molds that we all take and then alter slightly for our own knife designs. Every once in a while someone comes about and totally changes everything, then we take their designs and alter them slightly.

Designing a knife is not all that hard, unless you start making some truely unique designs that no one else has made before.

 

[chanwahyaoh]

I think the problem lies in that people try to make a black and white issue out of a situation that actually has several shades of gray.

It's all semantics anyway, so i don't understand why it's such a fuss.

PS> I agree dinozzo. It's generally not cool to call someone out like that by name w/o their permission.

 

[QuietBearr]

PS> I agree dinozzo. It's generally not cool to call someone out like that by name w/o their permission.

I actually did have his permission in the comments that I left on his video (which he has now deleted, but I am sure he will also say that I asked if we could take this to bladeforums to get other peoples opinions.

 

[CountyRat]

Designing a knife is not all that hard, unless you start making some truely unique designs that no one else has made before.

I think, sir, that you are too modest. I am sure that designing a knife is an easy task for you, and no doubt, for Knivesandstuff as well. For myself, designing a knife (a good one, anyway) would be quite a challenge. I know. I have designed one. I am very attached to it sentamentally, but it is not a good design, and I know it. That is why I have such respect for you and your fellow makers. You are not just skilled craftemen (though you certainly are skilled!) you are also artists. The fact that the two of you use different procedures in creating your art does not reduce my respect for either of you. Capable, intellegent people can disagree pasionately, and still respect each other for what they do, even if they do not agree about how to do it.

 

[MVF]

So, I design a knife and someone sees the design and offers to buy one. I get a (real) knifemaker to make it for me, but tell him not to sharpen it or finish the scales. I get the knife, sharpen it and finish the scales- I now get to say that I made a custom knife?

 

[QuietBearr]

So, I design a knife and someone sees the design and offers to buy one. I get a (real) knifemaker to make it for me, but tell him not to sharpen it or finish the scales. I get the knife, sharpen it and finish the scales- I now get to say that I made a custom knife?

I dont think so, but I guess others would call that your very own custom knife.

Oh and you change the grind on it, from a scandi to a convex.

 

[CountyRat]

So, I design a knife and someone sees the design and offers to buy one. I get a (real) knifemaker to make it for me, but tell him not to sharpen it or finish the scales. I get the knife, sharpen it and finish the scales- I now get to say that I made a custom knife?

In the scenario that you describe, you designed a custom knife, and contracted to have it executed. Ford does not make car parts. It contracts with other firms to have them made as Ford directs, and then puts the parts together, glues a "Ford" nameplate on it, and sells it. It is still a Ford, just a matter of how the work got parcelled out.

 

[KyleyHarris]

I dont think so, but I guess others would call that your very own custom knife.

Oh and you change the grind on it, from a scandi to a convex.

Once again you are spreading misinformation because you are trying to spout something and put your spin on it..

So, I get a machine to descale the blade. it is not making it a scandi which I put a convex edge on. you are acting a bit like an idiot and only reading what you want to read. I am taking my blank and making it into a convex scandi knife.

I read a lot hear about "what I think custom means" and "what I observe" etc etc.

Custom is a defined word that has a meaning. Its quite clear. this is why we have dictionaries. Custom, Customer? clear?

As for Ranger knives. Yes he build custom knives from scratch. He also builds RD series knives from scratch. He will also take an ontario blank and modify that or finish it if you ask him to. How many Ranger knives do you have QB? how much time do you spend talking to Ranger knives to make your assertions? I do quite a bit. Justin will blend his shades of grey and call things Full Custom, customized etc.. these are his personal preferences for his knives.

I make each knife as ordered by my CUSTOMER. I provide them CUSTOM. i provide it in a knife that meets their needs. I dont really care how you want to spin things in your little world. the word, and its intent is clear.

You Produce a Product, and then sell it. you provide custom to a customer, and get a renumeration. I deal direct with my customer and give them what they want.

How many knife makers are heattreating on coals like the good old days? how many are using digital ovens you buy that simply type in the steel and it treats is for you? Dont try and tell me Heat Treat is what makes you a knife maker these days. How many knifemakers hand file their knives. Many have 3000 grinders and sanders doing all the work for them..

The reality is simple.. I understand how to use a computer, and design a knife and get it laser cut to save my CUSTOMERS money. I know how to OUTSOURCE my Heat Treat to save money, because I dont have an oven. I choose a reputable company to do it for me to back the work, instead of a nameless heattreat company like so many knife makers who dont even disclose the relationship.

Dont try and tell me that the act of using a $3000 slack belt grinder to put a relief on makes a better knifemaker than using a better tool to do it cheaper.

If you want to take a BBQ, and some coals, and a hacksaw and bastid file and make a knife from scratch over 3 weeks and charge $1000 for something no better than a Mora, then that doesn't make you a knife maker, it makes you a Moron.

As to knife design, and calling it simple. That is the stupid words from a young mind full of the internet and the ability to just soak up other peoples ideas and get a grinder and say you are making a knife. None of these things bear relation to the meaning of CUSTOM.

There seems to be a lot of "reading into things" in this type of post.
There is only one Truth. Any maker has the right to call his work custom by law if its made to order, and no-one has a legal right to say otherwise. as long as the customers know what they are getting then its all above board.

Too many people, knifemakers included are trying to create a frame of thought to embellish the work they do..

There are a lot of Artisans in the knife world, and they do amazing things. but its embellishments none the less. better or worse. Hand Filed, or Laser CNC milled.. Custom only relates to customers. not to the act of making a knife.

Quietbear, finally. You told me you will take the QUESTION to bladeforums, and you said you'd do a video of THE QUESTION. IE WHAT IS CUSTOM?
YOU sure as hell didn't get my consent to carry your childish behaviour to a public forum and use my name.. you just acted like a prat, because you didn't like me calling you on you CHOIL BS.

 

[KyleyHarris]

Finally, I am done with this post. I've read some interesting opinions from various people and I've said my piece. No point continuing to defend my name against an opinion rather than a fact.

I was not even going to post here until I found out the QuietBear used my name and our postings directly rather than raising a general question for opinion.

no point turning this into an ongoing pissing match. Thats why i deleted the posts on my youtube channel in the first place.

 

[effer]

It can be called custom, production, semi, etc whatever.... As long as the process of how the product is made is known to the customer, the classification doesn't really hurt anyone. Knowing the process I can differentiate one knife from another. I can asses how much work (time, money) went into making the end product.

As to the knife in question (I guess Hiker), knowing how it is made, it is difficult for me to call it a custom, but it is just my opinion. To me it is more of a "modified" or "custom work done by..." thing. As I understand the early variants even had SVORD logo on the blade.

On the other hand, if I end up making something like this and someone asks me what is it, I may reply that it is my own custom. I won't hurt anyone. They cannot buy it anywhere. It is not in production. I'm not trying to sell it. It is my own pride and joy.

If you take RAT Izula or Spyderco Mule and make a carbon fiber handle for it, and put a convex edge. Is it a custom now? Probably not. Customized - definitely.
Same Izula blade with broken tip ground to a fine point (different blade geometry), personally hand wrapped by me with paracord. Is is a custom now? What if I strip it?

There are too many gray areas. I think if customer knows how it is made, you can call it any way you want, they will decide for themselves what the product is in their eyes.

 

[effer]

Saw couple more videos.

I guess I was wrong in the previous post and the argument is about the Bushcrafter, not the Hiker. Custom or no custom.... It is just a word. What one associates with it is what maters.

As to making the thread personal instead of a general discussion... Look on the bright side. I never knew about CKC, now I know

 

[KyleyHarris]

As to the knife in question (I guess Hiker), knowing how it is made, it is difficult for me to call it a custom, but it is just my opinion. To me it is more of a "modified" or "custom work done by..." thing. As I understand the early variants even had SVORD logo on the blade.

Well, I said I wouldn't post again (in relation to the discussion) but I will clarify this portion for you, as its all in video. Svord has a friction folder called a peasant knife. When designing a small fixed knife for myself, I found the size and properties of the peasant blade suitable for what I wanted to do, so I ground out a choil and converted the blade to a mortoised tang knife. (that was the inception and prototype of my knife)

After making 20 or so like this, I decided my design was worth going ahead with and asked Svord to do the heattreating and with their permission to leave the svord logo on my knife ( because I want people to recognize the quality of the steel and heat treat "brand recognition" )

As to my claims of my knives being custom.. I have only ever referred to my knives as being "knives designed and made by me using steel heat treated by svord and backed by their quality". But when asked publically "When are you going to make a custom knife" or a "real knife" etc or whatever, I answered clearly and honestly that these are all "my" knives and being made to order makes them custom by definitiion. Problem is.. some people are fixated on their opinions as being an emperical fact and cant just lie down and go away.

QuietBear came in on my video first being an Asshat and telling me that when referring to my Choil i Must call it a finger choil. Again, he misuses english and the meaning of words to suit his opinion. a choil is a choil and in a video I dont need to clarify the obvious. he only started this second issue after getting nowhere with the first.

he claims its innocuous, but it was all amazing timing after releasing the video of his First ever "Custom" knife recently to then come to my channel and start belittling what I do and trying to sound important.. I dont think anyone has ever seen me going and challenging other peoples views and arguing opinions as facts.. but I'll sure defend myself.

 

[KyleyHarris]

Saw couple more videos.

I guess I was wrong in the previous post and the argument is about the Bushcrafter, not the Hiker. Custom or no custom.... It is just a word. What one associates with it is what maters.

As to making the thread personal instead of a general discussion... Look on the bright side. I never knew about CKC, now I know

haha.. glad to hear it.. problem with making these threads personal is that its hard to back away.. we all have egos.. I'm trying.. trying.. so hard....

Hiker/ Bushcrafter.. I think it was a general disagreement of opinion about what I take ownership in for my craft.

What I find amazing is how many people refer to just slapping on some scales, and you got a knife, or how "easy" it is to whip up or design a knife.. sometimes its the smallest details that make one thing work and another fail.. its not easy at all to make a knife that is suitable to a large amount of people or even just one. That is why there are so many crap knives out there by people claiming its all so 'easy'. The handle is the feel of the knife.. its very critical.. the same blade with a different handle can make 1000% difference to performance. good knifemakers are aware of this. the shape and ergonomics are critical to the workingness of the knife..

it drives me crazy when I hear people saying.. all you are doing is putting on a handle.. or etc etc.. If my handle makes the knife outperform the same knife then its a better knife.. thats not easy, or everyone would do it.

Now This is a Beautiful Quote

And there are things I don’t know how to do, or which require equipment I don’t have, or are something I don’t enjoy doing and therefore don’t. I make knives because it’s a pleasure for me to do so; I assiduously avoid encumbering that pleasure with tiresome tasks or heavy sweat. This must be fun.

Jerry is a master, and a well spoken man that I admire very much. Peace Out.