Customs a level below production blades ?

Ron and Johnny,

Ron, I already know that Johnny does not own any custom knives. Do you? The reason I ask is I'm trying to get an idea of what your measuring stick is?

Johnny has already stated that his sole experience with custom knives is nothing more than fondling them.

Johnny, I don't see how you can form an opinion on something that you have never owned and used. As with the people you have talked with who support your position, this is more likely than not the case as well. While Im glad you have found the knife that satisfies your needs and fits into your budget. Your basis for comparison of a Reeve knife and a custom knife is minimal at best.

Ron, as for axes to grind and outing's, this is the United States Knifemakers Guild's area. They are the ones who have set the standars and the guidelines. The Guild board has determined that the way Reeve makes (or in this case does not make his knives) is not within the guide lines the Guild has set forth.

If there is another maker that you feel is not making his knives and getting credit, if you have proof than contact Al Pendray, President of the Guild.

I am not a knife maker so the way the Reeve knives are constructed have no effect on me.

As a dealer in only custom knives does his construction techniques affect my decision whether to carry his knives.

Also, it is important to keep mentioning the fact that these knives are not custom's. Ron not every person on this forum has your background. Consequently, the correct information must be given.

You can travel the internet and find several sites that list the Sebenza as a custom knife. As we have said in this forum on numerous occasions this is just not the case.

Ron, the problem with the "truth" not being consistent is that people get upset when they find out they have been mislead. As custom knife dealer I deal with this problem on almost a daily basis. People call me or email me wanting to sell or trade their knife. They were told by the person who sold it to them that this was a custom knife or this is a top maker, etc. Then I am the one who has to tell them they were lied to.

The truly negative impact of this lies in the fact that this person will probably never buy a custom knife again.

This scenario should bother every custom knife buyer. As this is one less person to sell or trade your knife to in the future.

Hugo,

Full time tactical folder makers average about 300 knives a year. This is because, even if the blades are laser cut and the handles are CNC'd they still do all the fit and finish work by hand. They do not have 8-12 people doing this for them.

So while I do see a trend to using the technology out there. I don't see custom knife makers turning their shops into a micro -factory as Chris has done.

Again, Hugo as with Johnny, if you are happy with the knife, that is all that matters. As for the most beautiful folder design, you are showing your limited knowledge of custom knives.

Hugo, Chris does have a big and well deserved following. Sometimes though this causes people to be a little blinded as to the realitly of the knife or person.

An example of this is Mad Dog. Our own Cliff Stamp started the now famous "dog pile" some months back by exposing a faulty warranty and very poor customer service. While the "church of the dog" is not closed. There are now many open seats.

Cliff,

This whole white knuckle thing with the folders baffels me. I have never had a folder close on my hand, ever!

When I was a cub scout many years ago, I was taught the proper way to use a knife. Back then the knife was a slip joint. Even as a boy, I never had one of these (a knife with no lock) close on my hand.

I would bet that 90% of the time (if not more), when a failure does occur that it is operator head space and timing. He/she was more than likely not using the knife either
A) Properly
B) For it's intended purpose.

Too many people want to substitiue a folder where they should be using a fixed blade. It's like using your knife as a screw driver, then saying the knife sucks because you chipped the tip.

No, it's not the knife's fault. As the saying went in 8th grade shop class...Right Tool for the Right Job.

As for the liner being recessed on the Q36, the answer is no it is not. Doesn't need to be if the knife is used properly. Cliff I would hazard to guess that I have used knives as hard as just about anyone on this forum.

The only time I have had a custom knife fail when I was using is when it was being used beyond it's limits.

Well Gents, this is my .02 cents. It's now time for others to jump in and play.

Guys, buy what you like, like what you buy! Justifiy however you like. After all it's your money and when it comes right down to it , the only opinion of any product that counts is yours. As long as your comfortable with your decision and you are happy, then that is what matters.



------------------
Les Robertson
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.

 
Lets say one drives a convertible (re: artsy custom).

Another drives a family sedan (re: sturdy production)

Which will be better on a crash test? Taken to the point of destruction, which will hold out a bit longer?

When dropping a rock from two stories, which will better protect your head?

Which is slightly more reliable? Which will cost less to repair? For the miles per dollar spent, which gets you to work cheaper?

If it rains, which offers you more of a possibility to get wet?

AND...

Which would you rather drive?

For me, life is too short to be too functional! (I use fountain pens also...awful on the torture tests!)

Les; I also cut with the sharp side, sliplock and linerlock!
smile.gif


-Michael

------------------
Chefget's Knife Page


[This message has been edited by Chefget (edited 09 December 1999).]
 
Some great performing custom blades:
John Greco
Darrel Ralph
Dave Broadwell
Bailey Bradshaw
John Richter
Larry Harley
Mel Sorg (Miss you, Mel!)

I'd stand these blades against anything machine produced.

As far as mechanisms go, there is no argument that a programmed CNC setup can't crank out thousands of high quality, consistent parts more efficiently than a human. But a machine can't make the first one. A pair of hands has to put an idea into material form. I'm not interested in knives with interchangeable parts. At my "ultimate" level, I'm not interested in knives that are EVER duplicated, by hand or machine. Every knife after that "first" one is a copy. Not created, but produced.

Again, this is a question of viewpoint. From a purely practical perspective (the one a machine would take
wink.gif
), a machine produced, tightly controlled precision part is perfect, and any deviation from specification is imperfect. From my perspective, any knife which is duplicated is, at it's genesis flawed, while the original, crafted from vision, is perfect.

I do, of course especially appreciate, and in fact insist upon, superb quality from the maker, but it must flow from his love for the individual knife taking form, not from his skill in programming manufacturing equipment, or his ability to assemble a good team. As quick examples, Charles West turns out a liner lock that has tighter tolerances than a Swiss watch, and Scott Sawby's knives have surfaces that meet invisibly.

Like preferring one color over another, our personal likes and dislikes are just that - personal. Maybe it comes from my background, but I know some utter babbling idiots who can do the hours of tedious, detailed work required to make a machine do incredible things, like carve precision objects out of raw materials. It will always impress me, but not enough to where I'll pay even close to custom $$ for it. I've worked in assembly line kitchens that could feed pretty good chow to 250 people an hour, but never food that I'd pay more than "time and materials" money to eat.

My work requires not only high quality technical prowess, but ALSO a personal "style" or "flavor" in order for it to be properly applied. Teams can configure equipment much more quickly than a single man, but not better, no matter how many hands. It is sole authorship, soup-to-nuts skill and craftsmanship which is valuable to me, personally, and it is this which I seek and pay for. Of course, I insist upon technical quality, and will keep the maker working for as long as it takes, or as many attempts as it takes to achieve it. But I ALSO insist upon the maker's touch and exclusivity.

[This message has been edited by Brian_Turner (edited 09 December 1999).]
 
I would argue that most custom knives are a few notches above most production knives.

Sure, some production knives will outperform some custom knives. But in general this is not the case.

I would venture to bet that there is no production knife made that will out perform (specifically out CUT) any user knife by the following makers (a partial list):

Jerry Fisk, Jim Crowell, John Fitch, Phil Baldwin, Tim Zowada, Jim Walker, Don Fogg, Steve Dunn, R.J. Martin, Phil Wilson etc.

I have also NEVER handled a production knife that feels as good in the hand as ANY well designed, well made custon knife. This is an often overlooked aspect of performance knives. If the knife isnt comfortable, or leaves blisters on your hand then its only 1 notch above worthless for real world use. What good is a "performance knife" that leaves your hands a mess in the feild. I would argue that such a knife is a liablity not a compliment to your survival.

Any how, i will wrap it up by saying that there is a place for each, however, when the chips are down...give me a good custom.

------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
A very clouded issue, which raises several questions, that will never be answered. I personally think the whole notion of "custom" whatever is skewed, and illogical. To me, anything custom has to be unique, that is the definition of custom.

I have owned several well known custom knives, and always felt that they could not perform any better then a high end production knife. I've also handled or used several other custom knives, which I didn't see as being vastly superior to a high end production knife. Using what I believe is the best production knife currently made, the Spyderco Starmate as a benchmark, what custom knives could match its performance and functionality (Sebenza not mentioned on purpose)?

When does a maker's use of machinery no longer qualify him/her as a custom maker?

I believe some of the main reasons a person buys a custom knife is not for performance, but instead for bragging rights and the knife's uniqueness.

--dan
 
Les, there is no doubt about the fact that if used so as to not put lateral stress across a liner it will not disengage and to not rely on the lock to keep the blade from closing will always prevent injuries. I too have used non-locking folders and have rarely had an injury and when it was it was because I was in a hurry and did something I knew that I should not have done.

For example a few years ago I was pointing a stick to protect a tree from geting lawnmowed. I was in a hurry because the weather was pretty crappy. The blade (SAK) slid into the wood too deep and without thinking I rotated my wrist to split the wood and this of course collapsed the blade onto my thumb splitting it nicely right down the side of the nail. You can still see the half moon scar quite clearly.

Anyway, my reason for wanting a more secure lock is that it will give me a wider range of applications for the knife. Use a fixed blade is not a good reason when there are knives out there that have very strong and stable locks. Unfortunately it seems that this is much more common on production blades, Axis, Rolling lock, Sebenza etc. .

So the question becomes what custom maker offers folding blades with similar lock strength and more important security (and of course the ability to cut well) ?

Currently I see Darrel's Apogee which is looking really attractive (compared to a Sebenza) because it is in CPM-420 has a really sweet recurve, and looks to have a much more ergonomic handle. Les on your page you list a medium as having a 3 3/4" blade, does this imply that there is a large and more importantly are there any available.

Darrel, if I was to do something moronic and damage the blade functionally could I just get a replacement blade ground or would I have to buy a whole new knife.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10 December 1999).]
 
Cliff - To stay on your original post, not the imfamous sebenza x apogee sqauble,

Name a production knife that you think will outcut any "user" knife by any of the makers i listed in my previous post.

The 4 best cutting knives ive owned were by Jerry Fisk, Jim Crowell, Tim Zowada, Don Fogg and John Fitch. These knives (some bowies, some hunters) out cut my cold steel knives and my buddys Busee. It wasnt even close. The customs by these makers had far superior blade geometry, edge retention, and ergonomics.

I have an idea, at the next ABS Hammer In, show up with your favorite production knife and enter the cutting contest.






------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
RMLamey, for a small light utility / hunting knife, the Deerhunter is a high performance cutting blade. Regarding the makers you described, or anyone else for that matter, name one that will stand behind his large bowies as Busse will theirs. I have no doubt that a thin distil tapered bowie will generally cut better than a Busse BM (except for high impact work), it will also be significantly weaker.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 10 December 1999).]
 
Les,

I completely agree with your opinion concerning the lockup on a knife. It is true that there are some custom/handmade and production knives have defects. There are bad apples out there on both sides of the fence that have completely bogus locks and left house before proper inspection.

I believe you first mentioned this idea when people were talking about tactical folders last year. If you have a custom knife that is properly made and was thoroughly inspected, it will not fail unless you are using it wrong. You aren't supposed to be whiteknuckling you knife when using it for defense or utility. If you find the knife twisting in your grip or if you are disengaging the lock in an odd way, it is you the user who is making the mistake and doing something wrong.

People bring this up in a defense forum because they are worried about if their knife will fail under certain conditions. Too bad many people don't even know what such a violent encounter is like or what actually could transpire or how a knife should be used or held. If you're worried about a knife failing its lock in a fight, don't get into a fight with a folder in the first place.

If you know what you are doing, a $2 Pakistani knife to a Benchmade folder to an Emerson custom will do the job just fine.

On the custom/production issue, the people that claim that production is better will never be convinced and even if they are convinced they'll often deny it or claim that they knew it all along. The argument is the same as the my 35 dollar G-Shock can keep more accurate time than your 3000+ Rolex Sub.

The person who argues this either thinks that they are better because they have the cheaper product which does the same thing, or they try to say that the 3000+ Rolex Sub is worthless (not my favourite luxury watch by the way).

This shouldn't be an elitist argument about bigger budgets or money but there are different knives for people with different needs. Different people have varied tastes that may not agree with yours. Some people like expensive food, wine or cognac which you may not like but there's no use saying, "my wine out of the box is the same as your 10,000 dollar bottle of wine," or "I can't tell the difference."

If you don't like custom or handmade knives or feel that they are not suited for your purposes do not buy them. The wait from makers is already long enough. But there is no reason that you should try to establish that custom knives and production knives are of the same quality and/or performance.

Jason

 
Hi Cliff, I disagree that the Busse or any other production knife is tougher than a properly heat treated, and tempered (especially if its differentially tempered) knife by any good maker. I will refer you to Jerry Fisks "maintanance" video. On the end of his video he demonstrates with a test blade the cutting ability (hacking easily through a seasoned section of 2 x 4 several times, cutting a bunch of rope) then still able to shave and slice a dropped piece of legal paper in half. This same knife is then destroyed (Jerry had to use a 3 foot cheater pipe to beak the thing, he couldnt do it free hand).

So it is possible and often done...the thinner distil tapered SUPERIOR cutting blades are as tough or tougher than most of the thicker, heavier production knives.

As far as standing behind knives, any good maker, especially those ive dealt with on my list are very honorable and back up there product completely.

------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
Although I am highly impressed with the Busse knives (see my post from the Shot Show '99 review threads)and the Sebenza (A fantastic knife definitely worth owning and using (The blued damasus ones with the decorated handles that I have seen look like works of art to me),many comments on the side of Customs hit the mark as far as my experience goes.

Each one of the guys that Les, Brian, RML and others mentioned as well as quite a few more have (miss you Mel or had) the ability to get all that can be gotten from the steel they are using on a knife by knife basis they are not just beating a piece of steel to shape over an anvil. Couple that with a group that does not forge, but still takes their metalurgy and heat treating seriously. Mix in a little uniqueness or god forbid some embelishment on occasions. I think I am stuck on customs. That wouldn't stop me buying a Busse and using the heck out of it.

"Life is too short to carry an ugly knife" Steve F.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 10 December 1999).]
 
quote:

I dont think there is a custom maker alive that can make a knife as good reeve without the cnc machine and blade grinders.

If darrel really believes this, maybe he should get a job at reeve's and learn to make better knives. or buy the cnc machinery.

quote:
The sebenza line may only be as good as the machine operator Cliff...BUT day in and day out the machine and its operator will kill a man like it did John Henry OK?

what the hell is that about??
 
The John Henry reference is to an American Fable about the Industrialization of our Country. In the last century, many people (often refereed to as “luddites”) feared that the increased usage of machinery in their industries would lead to their being replaced by such machines. This is also becoming prevalent today, noticeably in my industry, where people have been worried that the advances in Automated Lighting Equipment would eventually replace the use of Follow Spot Operators. This has not proved to be the case thus far, for as in the past it is simply a matter of adjusting ones skills to fit into the changing environment. This form of adaptation is what has led Humans to the dominant role on this planet. We adapt and evolve better than the competition.

There might come a day when most knife makers will require the skills to operate this advanced machinery, but I doubt that it will ever completely replace the truly hand made knife. It will make it rarer and thus more valuable, so perhaps Darrel would be best in ignoring your advice and continuing on the artistic path he has chosen, despite any misgivings he might have about trying to match the exacting specifications inherent to the new breed of High Tech knives like the Chris Reeve Sebenza or the Speedtech Synergy. I know that I am eagerly awaiting my next knife from him, an Apogee with his own Damascus. And I am about as die-hard a Sebenzanista as they come.



------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
As far as I know there aren't any "knife making machines" where steel goes in one end and knives come out the other. ALL knives are machine made to some extent or the other - and most all knives are also "handmade" in a lot of ways. It's a question of how many machines, how large is the production run and who's hands are doing the making.

The people working in Taiwan have hands just like those working in Solingen or in the Case factory in the USA.

For me it's a question of mass production with a "quality control dept" or limited, small production with basically one man who does the designing and quality control, or the case of one person who makes most all parts of the knife one at a time.

There's nothing wrong with mass production as long as the quality is there according to the price you pay for it. And a lot of that work is also done by hand too. It's just a lot of hands getting paid by the hour.

As long as the maker of a knife is open with his customers - as Chris Reeve is open about how his products are made and yes those Sebenza blades are hand ground - then what's the problem? Sure there are a lot of guys making "custom" folders of high quality. But very few sell these folders for $325 and I wonder how many of them are making a living doing it full time...



------------------
www.wilkins-knives.com


 
Tim You missed the point.
I do hope that god sends you an attitude adjustment for christmas.
ADD FOR THE MONEY to the quote.

AS for me getting out of the custom knifemaking industry nawww Im here for good.

Yes I can make a blade grind better and much sexier. NOT as consistant... every blade exact...at the price point CRK does.

I feel in my humble opinion that CRK makes one of the best production knives that is available for the money!
Ok.... Im glad we have that taken care of.

I feel that there are very few CUSTOM knife makers that can grind as many blades day in and day out with the same quality as CRK in the same price point.

I feel that Walter Brend might be the ONE person that can grind them as well and still be considered a custom knife maker. This is my opinion and I feel there may be others I have not mentioned but just dont know..

As for the frame lock
There was a post from a knifemaker who said that the frame lock was easier to make and that the lock will go all the way over when pushed (pressure applied). I feel this may have been posted as disinformation to offset the coming frame lock revolution, integral lock , bolster lock,,,,, whatever..

Its always hard to change .. It takes extra work. Dont rock the boat ... on and on ...

All I can say is that the frame lock, bolster lock, integral bar lock, whatever you want to call it is the next evolution in the locking liner group type of lock IMHO.
It is stronger , will not close on your fingers if built right. It is being built for the people we (knifemakers) feel ..require the locking liner type group lock to be stronger and more reliable.
As for the the lock moving over on the back of the blade with presure after a while ... I feel this is the nature of all of this group (ANY LINER LOCK BUILT WITH TITANIUM). I have added a cam stop pin in my apogee knives to allow the owner to readjust the lock after time. I will be adding this to my locking leaf integral locking knives also .....later.
As for the frame lock being an easy knife to make ... I disagree , Not many knifemakers have been making this type of lock . As they get into producing this lock they will find out that it is much more than a slot in the frame. There are many lessons to be learned here. I feel IMHO this lock type will be the lock of the future in the locking liner group type knives . DO THE MATH HERE.... Its just the natural evolution for humans to want the best, strongest ect...

As for me ... I am overwhemed by the KNIFE SELLING MAD MAN in GA.(LES) The Vanguard Mini-krait Illusion release DA (25 ea) ...proto will be shipped soon. The next vanguard knife is being planned, apogee orders of all types EXTREME, ILLUSION DA, Damascus ect are flush, many orders for custom knives straight and folding with large price tags :] (blue sky projects) , 9 more Kraits to build..several factory and custom collaborations are in process.
I am very thankful

I set out on a journey a few years back. I was building high end custom damascus folding knives at that time. I refocused my goals at that time to include ALL KNIVES. I realized that I had not made many using knives. After advice from Les Robertson and Dr Jeffery Briggs the Krait collabortion was formed. It was the best thing that ever happend to me as a knifemaker. The Krait knife project with Les fulfilled my need to prove that I could make a good using knife. After that the Apogee project started. NOW the Vanguard, the custom colaborations with great knifemakers of our time are coming, new fantastic ideas for high end custom knives flow much better, factory colaboration started ect.
I want to say that I feel that every high end custom knifemaker should take this journey. IT WILL HUMBLE YOU. Folks who buy using knives will make even the best high end custom knifemaker evolve. I am very pleased..
Forcing yourself to advance is much harder than resting on your past.
I just want to say that I love knifemaking.
I love making folders , I love making advancements, I love making straight knives, I love dreaming of new knives while asleep and building the result. I love making a mini machine that kicks butt and takes names (folders) . I love making choppers that chop through rail road ties, I love it all.
I feel I am a knifemaker that can make all types of knives now and my clients have helped me reach personal goal from a few years back.
I want to thank all of you who have knives from the past
I want to thank all of you who have knives on order
I want to thank all of you that will order and buy in the future.
Thanks for the faith in my knifemaking ability.
My direction has taken many tangents . Thanks

I love what I do.

Happy holidays :]


------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!www.darrelralph.com is here


[

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 11 December 1999).]
 
Thanks Darrel!

You have just expressed perfectly why I admire and buy the work of makers like you. The evolution of one's skills, techniques, and understanding is the process that every great Artist lives, eats, breathes, and dreams. Life and Art is Nothing without Change. Thank-you.

Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 12 December 1999).]
 
Les,

Like I said, I hope that the custom makers aren't forced to take the steps towards 'a mini -factory'. I just think that there is a trend that is moving to that direction. For instance Larry Chew already designs his folders on a CAD (some great design BTW). It's not a big step to download that data to CAM, and then it really doesn't matter who starts the machine. And if custom makers turn to that direction, would CRK then be 'custom' again? But if you think that the customs are not moving in that direction, then that's just great to hear! I believe you know about the custom knives a lot more than I do.
...but do you really have to put me down for it without any reason?
Again, Hugo as with Johnny, if you are happy with the knife, that is all that matters. As for the most beautiful folder design, you are showing your limited knowledge of custom knives.
Click to expand...
One of the things I tried to put forward in the previous post was that it's great that there is so many custom makers out there that do knives according to customers specifications (in addition to the production knives). That way there is something for all of us. I've gone through a period when I liked all kinds of fancy custom knives, but that's gone now. Now I favor clean simple designs. Yes, I do like the Sebenza to be the best design at this time. I'm just sorry that I don't like the knives you do! And because of you putting me down like that I still feel a need to defend myself more: I'm not a die-hard Sebenzanista - although if I get a Sebenza, there is always the chance that I may become one
smile.gif
. All knife brand/maker -followers seem to be blinded about the object of their passion - the custom knife fans also. But thankfully not always (stjames is a great example of that.)

Hugo.
 
I own several (8) Sebenzas from an Umfaan (or two) to a decorated damascus (gorgeous)large. I also have an Apogee by Darryl Ralph. It is like comparing a Dodge Viper to a Dodge Dakota. The Apogee is smooth and sexy, the Sebenza rugged and handsome. Customer service, I have personal knowledge of CRK, nothing yet to call Darryl about... more in the future!

------------------
"Hi, I'm Fish, and I'm a Sebenzaholic..."
copfish@aol.com

 
This may sound like a flame but it is not intended as such. To me a knife is a custom if it is made for "me". Some unique variation in the blade or handle or change in the carry system. If not then it is a production model whether made by hand or by machine. I have great pride in ownership in my sebenzas (as a mater of fact they are the only folder my wife will even consider). But I have had several custom folders that I had to send back due to construction weaknesses. The makers all fixed them fine in the end and gave me great service but they needed it just the same. But then again I am one of those dreaded users of knives not obsessed with the name of the maker. At the same time if you don't like it you won't use it and that is where I think that the hand built knife should shine. Darrel I like what you have to say and when the time is right and the model is right you will get my business because of your attitude that is the most I can say about a maker. However I do think that there are alot of good factory knives out there and there is no shame in owning and using them some of them just plain kick butt.
 
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