Customs a level below production blades ?

RMLamey :

the thinner distil tapered SUPERIOR cutting blades are as tough or tougher than most of the thicker, heavier production knives.
Click to expand...

I would love to believe that. But quite simply I can't see how the strength can be there without the necessary cross section, toughness of course would very likely be with the forged blades with the softer spines.

How come the ABS competitions don't feature any work that would show the strength and durability of the blades? I would be very interested in the results of such.

Does anyone have any working class custom bowies for sale? No ivory handles, no inlays on the blade, just a functional piece.


-Cliff
 
Les,

Where are all these websites misrepresenting the Sebenza as a custom knife?

I haven't seen any. All of the web dealers that I know of whether they carry primarily customs or productions present the Sebenza as a very high quality production knife.

------------------
Ron Knight
Scottsdale, Arizona
 
How does the Knifemakers Guild know who is or is not making knives consistent with the rules?

Do they inspect makers shops on a regular basis, rely a makers statement, or rely on word of mouth reports?

Since I am outside the industry, I have no way of knowing who is doing what.

But, I am willing to guess that there are those inside the industry who do know who is or is not making their knives consistent with the Guild rules.

------------------
Ron Knight
Scottsdale, Arizona
 
This is one of the best threads I've seen in a long time. Darrel, Les, James, Cliff, and many more respondents, have made some very cogent arguements. I'm proud to be part of this community, a whole bunch of rational people, discussing rationally.
Thanks.

------------------
A dedicated ELU
Buck Collectors Club Member
Knifeknut(just ask my wife)


 
Hi Cliff, Having the necassary "cross section" is not the only factor in a tough blade. Has much more to do with proper heat treating. Alot of makers dont even "differentially" temper there blades as most grown men cant break a fully hardened and fully tempered blade without the aid of some sort of mechanical advantage (cheater pipe!). These that are not Dif. tempered are as tough as the others in practical terms. Given all other factors eqaul the dif. tempered blade will fair better if you "abuse it" especially in your shop. IN the real world, as long as the blade is properly heat treated and tempered (even if fully hardened) you will play heck breaking it bare handed.

I dont dif. harden most of mine simply becuase a steel that requires a fast quinch (as 1095) does not generally harden all of the way even in a full quench (due to the blade "spine" being thicker and not reaching critical temp. before the quinch).

Also, differential heat treating has nothing to do with wether you forged a blade or not. You can use the stock removal method and still differential heat treat a blade. You can dif. treat any oil hardening steel that i am aware of, although i think the dif. heat treat is somewhat over rated.

Let me say this, the very disagreement we are having proves my point, you dont disagree that a good "custom" blade will out cut a good production blade. AND the primary job for knives is cutting, right? SO now we are simply discussing how the better custom makers can make knives as tough as the relatively larger, heavier production knives that rely primarily on mass for "toughness". The reason they can make the lighter, faster, superior cutting and equally tough blades is proper heat treating, blade geometry, and most of all INDIVIDUAL ATTENTION TO EACH BLADE.

The cutting competitions dont focus on destroying knives, the competition is meant to prove which knife is better at what it is designed for...cutting. There is some degree of "toughness testing", in the 2 x 4 chop. I realize that it isnt a pure test of "toughness" but it will tell you if your heat treat is bad! I purposefully quinched some blades a tad on the hot side then i didnt temper them at all... it only took a few swings to prove that the 2 x 4 test will indeed uncover any poor heat treat.

Cliff i really enjoyed this little joust, but i simply ask you to remember...knives are tools made for cutting, everything else is secondary. In cutting the "good" Customs are generally superior overall.

P.S.- go the the ABS page and read the testing requirements for the Journeyman Smith rating.




------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 12 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by RMLamey (edited 12 December 1999).]
 
I dont think there is a custom maker alive that can make a knife as good as reeve
without the cnc machine and blade grinders.
This is not a slam on Chris . It is just a fact!
Click to expand...

Darrel, sorry I did'nt see "for the money" in there. I am just wondering are knives like your apogee more of a production knife? Do you cut out all the parts and everything that
you do on higher priced custom knives? On these lesser priced knives do you not try for the highest quality you are capable of just because of the price range?

Please don't take immediate offense here as none is intended. I am really curious about
a "cheaper" line from a custom maker as I have seen ads saying like a series of 25 of the small apogee. Sheesh it would take me years to make 25 of the same model if I put
my usual work into them. Of course I am getting pretty slow but am just curious about this.

Sorry if my first post here seemed rude or my attitude needed adjusting, that was not my intent.

Tim
 
RMLamey I realize that cross section is hardly the only factor in a determining blade strength, however it cannot be ignored. Let's get specific, do you think a maker can forge a 1/8" bowie so that its strength will be equal to a Busse Battle Mistress? I certainly do not.

you dont disagree that a good "custom" blade will out cut a good production blade.
Click to expand...

Not exactly. To be specific I don't doubt that you could get a bowie that will outcut the BM. I just don't think it would be nearly as strong or as durable. You have stated that blades that you have handled could do both. Well what exactly are you basing this on? Have you taken a BM to failure and done the same on one of the customs you noted and seen the BM fail first?

My point was that you were comparing two very different knives, a BM and a thin distal tapered bowie and making some kind of general statement on a biased example. Production knives can cut very well, besides the Sebenza, a couple of other folders that cut well are the Spyderco Military and Calypso Jr. . In the fixed blade area there are the Deerhunter and the common Swedish blades with the no-bevel grinds. So if you wanted to compare the cutting ability compare a folder to the Sebenza and a fixed blade to the Deerhunter.

These that are not Dif. tempered are as tough as the others in practical terms.
Click to expand...

There seems to be some confusion here regarding strengh and toughness, they are basically in opposition in a blade in that if you increase one you generally decrease the other. High strength blades can handle a lot of stress applied slowly, ie. prying, high toughness blades can handle a lot of stress applied very quickly, ie. banging it off of something. If you temper the back of a blade really soft you will make the blade much tougher and as well be able to take a large bend but it will also be significantly weaker and thus bend more readily in the first place.

A lot of the things quoted about the custom bowies indicating high toughness ignore the fact that they also indicate low strength. For example a distil temper and a soft back will allow a very large flex in a blade. A 10" bowie for example made in this manner could probably have the handle flexed close to 90 degrees to the top of the blade say fixed in a vice. However the fact remains that it takes little force to achive this, ie. low strength.

Along those lines, Mike Turber recently snapped 1" off a Busse Basic by flexing it past 50 degrees. Out of curiosity I took a 12" Ontario machete and jammed the tip in a stump about 1" and flexed it to determine the fracture point. I bend it so the handle was past 90 degrees to the tip (which was distorting the wood so the actual bend angle is a little lower). Does this indicate the 1995 machete is "tougher" than the Basic? No, it can handle a much larger flex because it it thinner and a little longer. However what is important is that I bent the machete with one hand with little/no effort. It took Mike all he had to bend the Basic. The strengths are very different.

There is some degree of "toughness testing", in the 2 x 4 chop.
Click to expand...

That is not what I would consider even a low level benchmark. That is not beyond the abilities of a CS VG. A forged carbon steel bowie should be light years ahead of a low grade stainless folder. To be specific, the contact area in a 2x4 is very large and thus the pressure the blade is very low. I have seen blades handle that kind of cutting with no problems and then fail badly the field limbing out trees (edges bow out or go to pieces).

As for the ABS Journeyman tests, Rob S., described awhile ago on the Bladeware forum on the Hoodlums board how an untempered blade passed those tests. That does not seem to be a sensible standard to me. Here is the link :

Link to thread on the Bladeaware forum

and a quote :

a couple years ago at (I think) the Blade Show, one maker passed the, Journeyman's Bladesmith test with a blade that wasnt heat treated
Click to expand...

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 13 December 1999).]
 
Tim
Before a few years ago... When In the ivory tower... I had made very few model type knives. This does not mean that the knives I was making could not walk and talk .. They could...They ranged in price from 1500 - 6500.00 mostly . I understand what your saying about the time required to make a super high end custom knife. The micheal sword took about 8 months 8 hrs a day to complete.
As stated above I refocused my goals. I wanted to make work knives to complete my knifemaking portfolio.
As for the way I make my knives .. I build each knife one at a time Tim. The parts are made in batches. They are made from templets. When I make a one of a kind knife I do not make a or use a templet. The one off knife is done from a drawing and modified as I go . The model knife is made from templets and improved as I go on each knife and batch.
The difference is cutting out ten sets of handles at a time instead on one. Ten blades instead of one. ect
As for the details.... I search for ways to make things different(your own look) and learn ways to do the process that is cost efficient for the knife your making.
Thats about all I can say that makes since ..
The Krait knives for me were not profitable.
This knife was my first venture into a model knife making. Now that I have the Krait almost complete (100 Knives) 9 to go... I have learned ways to make parts and templetes that make building the model much easier. Art knives still require the same amount of time. Model knives are the same knife over and over. Well as humans we adapt to doing the same thing over and over. We get better and better at the task at hand if we have interest and like what were doing.
Tim this is something I cant explain. You have to go through the frustration of making
a model knife to understand this process.
As for quality I try to make every knife worth more than the price paid for it.
Value for the dollar is one way of rewarding the client for buying your work.
You know and I know a working satin finish is not 1200 grit hand rubbed finish.
It does feel great to be able to work in either realm..
Don Fogg was one of the folks that made a comment about making a hunter for a sports magazine that required many knives.
He said he was forced to improve his process for making the knives. As I stated above Tim Its very hard to force yourself to advance..If you are in a certain niche that you feel will be there forever pretaining to your business. Its very easy to live for the moment..
It is also very easy to be left behind .
You asked if the apogee is a production knife.. NOPE
There all different in little ways.
I put knives into three catagories

1. Production knives (FACTORY KNIVES MASS PRODUCED all very close to the same)
2. Models knives (BOB LOVELESS DROP POINT HUNTERS, Moran ST23 knives, Krait ect)
4. One of a kind knives art or otherwise.
These are the dream blue sky knives that are of a unique design ect.

To make 25 high end art knives it would take me forever also. 2 - 2.5 years on average.
also. I know this ....they would be a much better knife than the art knives of 5 years ago. The model knife fine tunes ones skills.

I hope this answers your questions



------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
Hi Cliff, Both of us know that any 1/8" stock knife, bowie or otherwise, will not equal the BM in terms of strength. Most of the makers i know start with 1/4 or 3/16 stock when making a larger knife, never even seen a 1/8" thick bowie. On the flip side i can make a knife out of 3/8 stock and it will be as strong as all heck but it will also be very heavy, and wont cut as well as one of 3/16 stock (and the 3/16 blade will be as strong as i ever need it).

And again, there are knives out there that will out cut the BM, and at least equal it in terms of PRACTICAL strength (by practical im talking real world use).

NO, i havent taken a BM to failure, what im basing my opinion on are the tests on BF, and my own using customs by various makers. I realize the BM is a great production knife, i simply think there are better customs out there and thats the topic of this thread (your topic "production" a notch above "custom"?). Im simply taking the standpoint that in my experience customs have it hands down. Again, ive USED knives by Jim Crowell, Jerry Fisk, John Fitch and others. These knives were terrefic cutters and i had complete confidence in there "toughness and strength".

SO what im basing my opinions on are real world knife usage, plain and simple. I havent owned a BM yet, but ive handled and used one. Again, good knife but didnt cut as well as any of my customs(the same customs i have complete confidence in).

Another factor im basing my side on is the fact that the guys i buy knives from test very hard, sell no junk and are there own hardest critics. They are easy to get ahold of on the phone and are more than willing to discuss individual customer requirements for a knife (another factor in the custom over production discussion).

I dont doubt that there are super cutting production blades out there, ive owned a few.

I havent taken any of the knives i have purchased to failure, thats not why i purchased them. I purchased them to use as knives...cutting tools. However, i am confident that i could rely on them simply becuase they are built right and from makers that test there knives.

I have experimented with knives ive made and taken them to failure (testing different heat treats etc..). This to me, is the MAKERS job, not the job of the customer. This way a customer can be confident in the knife he is purchasing without that overshadowing menace of "wonder if its tough"?

I agree that limbing out a tree is a tougher task than whacking on a 2 x 4. HOwever, the 2 x 4 test does check a small degree of toughness and heat treating, a "low level benchmark" as you say.

I think im placing much more emphasis on cutting and real world toughness (by this i mean toughness in intended use).

And yes, the Journeyman Smith test is not flawless, but it is a low level bench mark for testing. As far as a non heat treated blade meeting all the criteria...well i call B.S. on that. Sure you can bend a non treated blade 90 without breaking but it will have little to no return any how, im talking about using the same knife throughout the test and diong the bend last(as i think they should do it).

Cliff, We are probably just going in circles with this discussion. We simply have a fundamental difference in what we prefer in knives. You place a huge amount of emphasis on "strength", i place a huge amount of emphasis on "cutting" with a secondary emphasis on "real world strength and toughness".

For what i desire in a knife, customs are simply the only way to go, and for you the BM is the answer. Im glad we have had this discusion, i hope we will both benefit.



------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
Darrel,

It does answer my questions and thank you.
I don't think i could make 100 of the same model without ending up in a padded cell. lol

Tim
 
I know the feeling .. Thats why on this type of knife we (les and I ) reduced it to 25 . The 100 are a result of 3 years almost including prototype time . The kraits were all different with different options . So it was fun more than anything..
Also as stated I learned lots of great new things.

------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
Hello Everyone! I just joined and realy like it,
Now! As a custom knifemaker myself, I put ALL
my knives throught inspections after inspections and their is no one more crital than myself, when I mail a knife to a client I know that if I like it He/She will I WILL NOT SHIP NOTHING BUT THE BEST I CAN DO.

Thats why a client is getting nothing but the best, It is something he can hand down.

Thats why this craft is great to be in, you are putting a peace of you in every knife you
make.

Thanks James


------------------
 
I have to agree with RML on the BS side of the blade test being passed with a non heat treated knife. Ray Kirk took and passed his ABS journeyman test at my shop on 2 Oct 1999
with 50+ people watching. What that blade had to go through to pass can not be done with untempered steel. The test is more than one thing and after each step it still has to shave hair. What your man saw was only a part of the test, no doubt only the bend test. I've heard this same thing from several others and in each case it originated as sour grapes from some guy that couldn't pass the test. Sorry to burst some bubbles but just any old knife will not cut the mustard on this test.

------------------
old pete
 
Pete
When I took my JS test Batson made me forge three blades in front of him, grind them , heat treat them, and do the bend test and cutting test.
Your right ... some of the misinformation folks who dont like the ABS have done a great job of playing these tests down.




------------------
Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!




 
I have some trouble with the use of the word custom in this thread.
I have a custom knife made by Gene Osborn.
You will never see another one like it because he made it to my design.
He made it to the customer's specification and even though we refined the design together, that makes it a custom knife.
It also looks hand made.
If you spend hours examining it, you will find all the little dissymmetries that reveal it as made by hand and eye of man.
You will also see in it a work of art, a communication from artisan to audience.
You will also appreciate a unique balance and liveliness that Gene put into the steel as he constantly appraised the work in progress and refined its shape.

I have a John Greco knife that costs one fifteenth what the Osborn knife costs.
The Greco feels alive and has a unique quality to it.
You can also find evidence in it that a man made it.
It has minor dissymmetries.
However, it cost so much less not because of lesser quality but because John made a lot of them.
He could set up for them and enjoy the economy of scale, repetition and organization.
John makes handmade knives but not, in this case, custom knives.
I know John would make a custom knife if I would pay for it and if he liked the design, but I consider John's knives benchmade because he makes a run of them to his own design.

I treasure both knives, my Oborn and my Greco, and trust them both to hold up to unreasonable abuse and perform according to design.

Osborn=Custom

Greco=Benchmade

How else would you say it?

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
I would like to weigh in....

1) I think that whoever wants to test a knife, should. Testing is not the sole realm of the maker. Consumer testing is a sort of 'check' on bad makers, let's be honest, knife people including makers are just like other people, some good, some bad. You cannot always trust that the knife you buy from a maker custom or otherwise, is everything they claim it to be. Hype and marketing half-truth is rampant.

2) I wonder why so many people are harsh with Cliff, here, KF, RTA, Hoodlums etc. Someone is always having a problem with the way he does things. Interesting.... Not pointing fingers, just seeing if anyone else has noticed this.

3) I don't care whether it is custom, benchmade, production, sole or whatever other names you want to call these knives, I care about performance. Personally, I am probably never going to take a knife to failure, but I like to know where failure is.

I like "custom" knives because I am a picky SOB, who is never quite happy with someone else's idea of the perfect knife. So Allen Blade and I are working on MY knives, and boy am I looking forward to getting them.

For instance, I have only met two handles that I really liked and both of them were by Allen Blade, of course before that most of my experience was with production stuff.

I am not a collector, so sole or spirit in knives means very little to me, the closest thing I ken is whether I like the maker personally. Of course that adds to my appreciation of the knife.

Also I like performance, including for my dollar. I would never own a K an inch blade, because at that point returns have diminished to nothing, unless you are looking at resale, and then you aren't using it, are you?????

To me, all this hubub about names is missing the point.

To me the issue is....

Am I willing to pay this much for this knife?

If you like custom, god bless you.

If you like benchmade, god bless you.

If you like sole authored, god bless you.

If you like handmade, god bless you.

If you like production, god bless you.

All these names are figments of our imagination, classifications tacked on after the fact, qualifications of things that need not be qualified, except in a construct of definitions where reality is second to perception.

Buy what you like.

Personally I think you are wasting your time arguing over arbitrary names, dollar values seem the better judge of levels. And performance.

Please pardon me if my above post seems rude, I submit it humbly, as my opinion.

------------------
Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.


[This message has been edited by Marion David Poff (edited 14 December 1999).]
 
Ken, we have all been over the custom, hand made, bench made, one of, discussion countless times on this forum. So if you focused on terminology during all of the previous discussion in this particular topic (custom a level below production?), then you didnt focus on the relavent points that this topic raised.

I would agree with Marion, terminology is over rated and we shouldnt get so hung up on it.

I think Marion missed my point on testing, i dont think that customers shouldnt test there knives, quite contrary, I encourage any of my customers to test my knives(and i am a new maker). I do, however, believe that its the makers job to test each blade and occasionally pick random blades to take to destruction. It his the makers job to ensure the reliablity of his knives, even when misused as may happen in an emergency. This way the customer will know, WITHOUT DESTROYING HIS KNIFE, that it will be there when the chips are down. On the flip side, I think we are all placing way to much emphasis on this so called "testing" for strength(as in destruction).

Marion, i dont think anyone here has been "tough" on Cliff or the way he does things. I admire his very good opinion and GREAT ability to articulate it. I wish more folks on the forum were like him and could have a good ole disagreement without getting personal etc...

I think, as i said in my last post, that Cliff and I simply place our priority in a different order when it comes to knives. My requirements are met by customs, his are met by high end factory.

Thanks, Matt.

PS INFI is great steel, was talking with Tim Zowada a while back and he had nothing but good to say about it.

------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
Hi Rm.
I thought I read the thread.
I could have missed the point, because I didn't really see one.
And I know we have discussed this terminology before: I have seen everything come back around at least once in these forums.
I still don't understand how some knives get called custom when you can buy multiples of them and they don't reflect the customer's design.
My problem; I can live with it.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
Ken, it gives me a headache as well.

------------------
James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
My last post on this dead horse, its getting to much off topic for me.

I dont think the original question of the topic can be completely resolved as different folks like different attributes in knives.

Thanks, Matt.



------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

 
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