Cutouts Under Pocket Clip

[Teesac81]

Hey guys, what are the cutouts for under pocket clips on the scales of some folders? CRK has them on their folders, but they’re on the inside of the scales. I’m looking at a McNees knife (image not loading - but I imagine most knife people know what I’m talking about). The cutout on knife is on the outside of the scale under the pocket clip. I just can’t really think of a functional reason for it.

 

[MolokaiRider]

If I am not mistaken, this is a relief point for the lockbar.

 

[Barman1]

Here's more info than I could explain.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/why-relief-cuts-in-framelocks-linerlocks.821402/

 

[Glenn Goodlett]

Or do you mean like on a Herman? I'm curious about these.

 

[Teesac81]

Or do you mean like on a Herman? I'm curious about these.

Not that type of cutout but the one where the pocket clip lands on the lockbar. It seems it must be in order to make it easier to open and close because the lock bar is too stiff otherwise. I do wish that they put travel stops on lock bars with reliefs to keep them from loosening up over time.

 

[knarfeng]

Hey guys, what are the cutouts for under pocket clips on the scales of some folders? CRK has them on their folders, but they’re on the inside of the scales. I’m looking at a McNees knife (image not loading - but I imagine most knife people know what I’m talking about). The cutout on knife is on the outside of the scale under the pocket clip. I just can’t really think of a functional reason for it.

You mean like this?


That's to thin our the frame where it becomes the lock bar. If they did not thin it out, the amount of strength required to move the lock bar would be such that no one would be able to operate it.

 

[LimpCroissant]

Not that type of cutout but the one where the pocket clip lands on the lockbar. It seems it must be in order to make it easier to open and close because the lock bar is too stiff otherwise. I do wish that they put travel stops on lock bars with reliefs to keep them from loosening up over time.

Yup, other people already told yeah, but you need that lockbar relief cutout in order to have a functioning framelock. Most liner locks have it as well, however obviously they are not as pronounced.

However to your other point on worrying about them loosening over time, It won't happen my friend. I've been watching the knife community for a decade and a half and can't remember a single time where I saw someone post a picture of their framelock overextended because they opened the lockbar too fast or used too much strength. I think I've seen one or two pics of it, however I think those were a case of someone adjusting the lockbar and they bent it out too far. You could do it if you were really motivated and set out to do just that, however in order to bend the lockbar enough to have it set, you really need to dissassemble the knife and have the opposite side liner/frame/scale off.

And in 95% (random number, but close to what I've seen) of the time, a lockbar will never wear all the way across the blade tang (lock) and reach the other scale which would mean the lock no longer has any travel left and vertical bladeplay (lock rock) will now happen. You will see it happen on super cheap gas station type knives, however it's exceedingly rare on quality knives. I used to have the same worry when I first got serious into knives, however over the years I noticed that once the frame lock/liner lock "sets" into place from opening it it's first 50 or so times, it really doesn't move over any further than that. There will always be the rare exception, however it's very rare.

Lockbar stabilizers are cool, I like them too, however with how good the manufacturing is now days, I treat them as more of just a cool doo dad to have on the knife for aesthetics.

 

[Teesac81]

Yup, other people already told yeah, but you need that lockbar relief cutout in order to have a functioning framelock. Most liner locks have it as well, however obviously they are not as pronounced.

However to your other point on worrying about them loosening over time, It won't happen my friend. I've been watching the knife community for a decade and a half and can't remember a single time where I saw someone post a picture of their framelock overextended because they opened the lockbar too fast or used too much strength. I think I've seen one or two pics of it, however I think those were a case of someone adjusting the lockbar and they bent it out too far. You could do it if you were really motivated and set out to do just that, however in order to bend the lockbar enough to have it set, you really need to dissassemble the knife and have the opposite side liner/frame/scale off.

And in 95% (random number, but close to what I've seen) of the time, a lockbar will never wear all the way across the blade tang (lock) and reach the other scale which would mean the lock no longer has any travel left and vertical bladeplay (lock rock) will now happen. You will see it happen on super cheap gas station type knives, however it's exceedingly rare on quality knives. I used to have the same worry when I first got serious into knives, however over the years I noticed that once the frame lock/liner lock "sets" into place from opening it it's first 50 or so times, it really doesn't move over any further than that. There will always be the rare exception, however it's very rare.

Lockbar stabilizers are cool, I like them too, however with how good the manufacturing is now days, I treat them as more of just a cool doo dad to have on the knife for aesthetics.

Thank you for the words I was needing to hear. I am pretty new and, spending upwards of $600 on a knife, I want to know it’s going to last. That said, it seems that the possibility of the lockbar’s springiness wearing out over time is next to none.

 

[Teesac81]

You mean like this?
View attachment 2357352

That's to thin our the frame where it becomes the lock bar. If they did not thin it out, the amount of strength required to move the lock bar would be such that no one would be able to operate it.

Yes, that’s the kind I was talking about. It all makes sense now. Thank you!

 

[Teesac81]

So my next question about this is why would one manufacturer (CRK) put the lockbar reliefs inside the inside of the scale while another manufacturer (McNees) puts them on the outside? When it comes to aesthetics, the CRK looks better in that regard. But is there a functional difference?

 

[ferider]

Hey guys, what are the cutouts for under pocket clips on the scales of some folders? CRK has them on their folders, but they’re on the inside of the scales. I’m looking at a McNees knife (image not loading - but I imagine most knife people know what I’m talking about). The cutout on knife is on the outside of the scale under the pocket clip. I just can’t really think of a functional reason for it.

It's the core of Chris Reeve's RIL patent. Otherwise it would be a Liner-lock.

So my next question about this is why would one manufacturer (CRK) put the lockbar reliefs inside the inside of the scale while another manufacturer (McNees) puts them on the outside? When it comes to aesthetics, the CRK looks better in that regard. But is there a functional difference?

To determine what happens if it breaks. On the inside is prettier, on the outside is safer. Plus, outside is easier to machine, I'm guessing.

 

[Jsega51]

So my next question about this is why would one manufacturer (CRK) put the lockbar reliefs inside the inside of the scale while another manufacturer (McNees) puts them on the outside? When it comes to aesthetics, the CRK looks better in that regard. But is there a functional difference?

I have knives from the same manufacturer, same knife model even, an earlier version has the relief on the outside, a more recent version has it on the inside and I can’t tell a difference at all outside of appearance.

 

[Teesac81]

I have knives from the same manufacturer, same knife model even, an earlier version has the relief on the outside, a more recent version has it on the inside and I can’t tell a difference at all outside of appearance.

 

[Teesac81]

For what my opinion is worth then, McNees should put those reliefs on the inside. It looks a little junky on the outside.

 

[Tsujigiri]

So my next question about this is why would one manufacturer (CRK) put the lockbar reliefs inside the inside of the scale while another manufacturer (McNees) puts them on the outside? When it comes to aesthetics, the CRK looks better in that regard. But is there a functional difference?

A lot of designers like to put the cutout on the inside because it looks a little cleaner and it doesn't form a snag point for your pocket to catch on. If you put the cutout on the outside, though, the lock is stronger. The point of failure for a framelock (besides a failure at the lockface) is usually the thinned section buckling, so placing the cutout on the outside ensures that the forces applied are more inline and buckling is less likely.

It won't make or break anything, kind of more of a preference thing. Not too many people have overloaded their framelocks enough to buckle the relief. Also, some designers put the cutout on the outside or do multiple small cutouts for stylistic reasons. Integral framelocks also often have the cutouts on the outside because it's more difficult to get inside on an integral (but not impossible).

 

[tony281sc2]

And in 95% (random number, but close to what I've seen) of the time, a lockbar will never wear all the way across the blade tang (lock) and reach the other scale which would mean the lock no longer has any travel left and vertical bladeplay (lock rock) will now happen. You will see it happen on super cheap gas station type knives, however it's exceedingly rare on quality knives. I used to have the same worry when I first got serious into knives, however over the years I noticed that once the frame lock/liner lock "sets" into place from opening it it's first 50 or so times, it really doesn't move over any further than that. There will always be the rare exception, however it's very rare.

The only framelocks I’ve really had problems with was the kershaw Natrix. It’s actually a sub-frame lock, and the lock bar is made out of plastic, or really cheap aluminum, I can’t remember.
Having a lockbar insert gives me piece of mind on more expensive knives. I have owned some of the older ZT 0550/0560s that locked up really late (~75%).
They do settle, but sometimes if you have to cut through something really hard or put too much pressure by accident, it can move it over permanently. It’s a great way to ensure the knife lives a lot longer, otherwise you’re SOL if you have to use a frame lock knife hard without an insert and late lock up.

That’s honestly a big part of why I have never tried a CRK, LG, or Spartan

 

[shinyedges]

The only framelocks I’ve really had problems with was the kershaw Natrix. It’s actually a sub-frame lock, and the lock bar is made out of plastic, or really cheap aluminum, I can’t remember.
Having a lockbar insert gives me piece of mind on more expensive knives. I have owned some of the older ZT 0550/0560s that locked up really late (~75%).
They do settle, but sometimes if you have to cut through something really hard or put too much pressure by accident, it can move it over permanently. It’s a great way to ensure the knife lives a lot longer, otherwise you’re SOL if you have to use a frame lock knife hard without an insert and late lock up.

That’s honestly a big part of why I have never tried a CRK, LG, or Spartan

While the crk doesn't have a steel lock bar insert, it has a ceramic ball. I too, was worried about being able to force the lock bar over with heavy cutting, like I'd done on many zt's, but I can assure you that is not an issue with the inkosi. For what ever the reason, kai frame locks with steel inserts can be forced over, probably due to poor tolerances.

 

[LimpCroissant]

The only framelocks I’ve really had problems with was the kershaw Natrix. It’s actually a sub-frame lock, and the lock bar is made out of plastic, or really cheap aluminum, I can’t remember.
Having a lockbar insert gives me piece of mind on more expensive knives. I have owned some of the older ZT 0550/0560s that locked up really late (~75%).
They do settle, but sometimes if you have to cut through something really hard or put too much pressure by accident, it can move it over permanently. It’s a great way to ensure the knife lives a lot longer, otherwise you’re SOL if you have to use a frame lock knife hard without an insert and late lock up.

That’s honestly a big part of why I have never tried a CRK, LG, or Spartan

So you like the lockbar inserts not so much for their ability to keep the lockbar from overextending in the opposite direction that it locks up, like as if you were to push too hard when unlocking it, but it's ability to keep the lockbar from kind of wiggling back and forth on heavy cutting? And I mean back and forth as in not in the natural direction that the lockbar travels when locking and unlocking, but the other direction? I'm not arguing or anything, I'm just curious why you like it for keeping the lockbar from traveling all the way to the opposite liner and causing blade play, or rather why the lockbar stabilizer would help when the lockbar is traveling that way, considering I think usually people think of the stabilizer as helping in the other direction. Maybe you can give me some more appreciation to the Lockbar Stabilizer.

 

[Tsujigiri]

The only framelocks I’ve really had problems with was the kershaw Natrix. It’s actually a sub-frame lock, and the lock bar is made out of plastic, or really cheap aluminum, I can’t remember.
Having a lockbar insert gives me piece of mind on more expensive knives. I have owned some of the older ZT 0550/0560s that locked up really late (~75%).
They do settle, but sometimes if you have to cut through something really hard or put too much pressure by accident, it can move it over permanently. It’s a great way to ensure the knife lives a lot longer, otherwise you’re SOL if you have to use a frame lock knife hard without an insert and late lock up.

That’s honestly a big part of why I have never tried a CRK, LG, or Spartan

Is the issue that you have lock failure or just late lockup? Because a lot of makers will radius the lock face so it will wear relatively rapidly up to a point and then stop. Even if the bar looks like it's pretty far over, the function won't be affected at all. Also, a late lockup means more lock face surface contact, which should make the lock less likely to disengage when subjected to shocks.

I can't recall ever hearing about a quality titanium framelock wearing through to the point that it can't safely function.

As Shinyedges noted, the newer CRK's have a patented ceramic ball interface that's even harder and more resistant to wear than a steel insert. The older 21's had no insert, but the titanium was carburized at the lock face to increase its hardness.

 

[J. Doyle]

I think a lot of people don't understand what is happening on a liner or frame lock.

The lock contact area is VERY small, usually just in a corner. Even if it LOOKS like the entire lockbar width is making contact, it almost certainly isn't. So over travel or "late" lockup does not mean more surface contact for better lockup.

Also, unless it's a really poor quality knife, heavy cutting that results in over travel on the lock bar is most likely because of flex/deflection in the lock bar and not wear.

A properly made, quality titanium frame lock or liner lock will literally last decades with no appreciable wear and no lock stick.

Lock bar inserts, carbidized lock faces and over travel stops/stabilizers are "solutions" looking for problems and are far more marketing gimmicks than anything else.