Cutting Competitions: "Dog and Pony Show"

What I should have said was thanks everyone for the info but I jumped in at the end and did not read all the posts.. Thanks

Mr. Crowell have one of the Browning knives you and Mr. Barker designed and I am quite impressed with the performance for a factory blade
 
I have never competed but have followed the cutting comps pretty close and find it all very interesting. This thread has been a good read, thanks all.

It was a sad day for me when the ABS decided not to hold cutting events.
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Does anybody else feel this was a big mistake on behalf of the ABS :confused: The cuttin comps were drawing a lot attention and interest to the org.
 
RE:
It was a sad day for me when the ABS decided not to hold cutting events.
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Does anybody else feel this was a big mistake on behalf of the ABS :confused: The cuttin comps were drawing a lot attention and interest to the org.
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I think that it was a huge mistake when the ABS stopped doing Cutting competitions. It was the most entertaining thing at most Hammer-ins. I think that it attracted many people who were not that into custom knives.

The ABS said that they were worried about insurance and potential liability. That doesn't seem to be a problem with other organizations who have cutting competitions.

Jim Treacy
 
jjtjr said:
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I think that it was a huge mistake when the ABS stopped doing Cutting competitions. It was the most entertaining thing at most Hammer-ins. I think that it attracted many people who were not that into custom knives.

The ABS said that they were worried about insurance and potential liability. That doesn't seem to be a problem with other organizations who have cutting competitions.

Jim Treacy
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Huge fits the bill here, Jim. I heard the reasons and they still didn't make any sense at all. But I'm not involved and had no say in the matter.

The momentum behind the ABS and their cutting comps was Huge.
 
Just to clarify, it was a sad day, but the ABS did what it had to do, I'm sure. I dont criticize the decision.

It's also sad that things like insurance and liability has such an influence, but that's a fact of life nowadays.

That said, I do think the competitions draw a lot of positive attention to any knife event. It's swirl of action in an atmosphere that is sedentary a lot of the time. It shows an exciting result of the process of knifemaking. It's an extention of the making process, in my opinion. I test my knives in my shop, but nobody sees that. We go to a lot of trouble to show pictures of our knives in the building process, but the final testing goes unseen. The competitions allow that.

A couple of years ago Jerry Petty, Bob Starkey, Chuck Ward, and myself were at the Big Buck Classic in Little Rock. We were forging and doing knife related demonstrations. On Saturday John Fitch and Shawn Ellis were there and when things got a little "slow", Big John would take an 8 foot 2 X 4 and walk out in the open and whip out his cutter and in a few short strokes he had the 2 X 4 in half and the crowd was interested again. They started gathering to see what it was all about. To see John do that is very impressive. Action is the attraction. Lin
 
Jim,

I did not mean to misinterpret what you said or meant in regard to our discussions at competitions prior to your win at Texas. At the time I felt like you and I and several of the other ABS Cutters were being out-classed by the new guy’s who spent a lot of time practicing. I also got the impression you felt this way too. You proved this direction of thought to be wrong with your win. I never had the natural skill level you possess. The only way I ever competed at an acceptable level was a lot of practice. I was trying to point out that knife design is equal to skill level. If I offended you or misrepresented the facts in any way please accept my apology.

Jparanee,

As far as I know all the knives at the 2009 Blade Show Competition were stock removal. Most of the Bladesmiths competing in BladeSports events have stopped doing competitions. The predominate steel seems to be Crucible M4. This is what Warren and Gayle use and they make a lot of the knives used in BladeSports competitions.

Daniel
 
It is a real shame that the ABS stopped doing cutting competitions. It was a big draw for the hammer-ins. I know that many others and I went to a lot of these events and spent a lot of money to compete. But it was worth all the time and effort.

I spent quite a bit of time discussing the reasons for the ABS decision with board members and while the reasons given were somewhat believable the primary reason hinged on 1 persons involvement with ICCT and the direction the organization was designed to go. BladeSports changed that and turned the direction around to more education and positive promotion of knives. ICCT was more profit and entertainment oriented.

Daniel
 
Finaly an interesting thread!
I too miss the ABS cutting comps. They were a great learning experience...and a whole lot of fun!:D

Dan, I'm curious to know what the advantage is of a full taperd tang over a hiden tang? More weight?Thx.

Mace
 
Mace,

Balance and weight distribution are key in developing a competition knife that fits an individual cutter. I don’t know of any competitor that was ever totally satisfied with the knife he/she used in a competition. There always seems to be some little thing that makes you think, “If this were like this I could get through that cut faster”. In this regard there are always changes being made to knife designs. This gives a maker/cutter an advantage over most non-maker/cutters.

A full tang knife design allows for more control over weight and balance. You just have more to work with to get the weight distribution where you want it. Also there is a distinct advantage using the forward lanyard system. With a full tang design you have full control where the lanyard hole is positioned. It is possible to locate a forward lanyard on a hidden tang knife. John Fitch had a design that featured a forward lanyard that passed through a steel ferule. However if you use a hidden tang knife in BladeSports competition it will be closely inspected by the event officials for safety reasons. I have seen catastrophic failure in competitions twice. One was a hidden tang knife that broke in two where the shoulders dropped down to the tang. A stress fracture had been created at that point and caused the knife to break in a heavy cut. The second was a full tang knife that the maker had made some saw teeth looking cuts in the spine. This also caused a stress fracture and the blade broke.

Daniel
 
Mace said:
Dan, I'm curious to know what the advantage is of a full taperd tang over a hiden tang? More weight?Thx.
Mace
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I was just about to ask the same question!:thumbup::cool:
 
Daniel,

No offense taken or perceived and no apology necessary. Thank you for your integrity.
I agree the new guys who practiced were beating the old guys who did not. I admire their determination for doing so. I agree whole-heartedly that a quality design/ knife is on a par with skill level.

Jparnee,

Glad you like the knife they really do perform well. But as reflected in several other posts, designs have progressed. This one is now somewhat outdated for competition. They are however great camp/ utility knives and fared rather well on /www.knifetests.com

Jim
 
This is a great thread. :thumbup:

Jim Crowell, welcome to BladeForums! Stick around and join some other discussions. We spoke at Blade again this year, you will recall that I had bought one of your old camp/competition knives from a dealer back at Blade 2007. I used that knife to win a little backyard cutting comp a buddy put together for some friends. Since I have no skill, it must have been the knife.

I spoke with some makers at Blade this year about competition knives, as I have weakness for choppers. My impression is that the current crop of knives are the equivalent of finely tuned racing machines, perfect for the peculiar demands of competition, but not as broadly practical for a regular user as the camp knives from which they evolved.
 
J Crowell said:
Daniel,

No offense taken or perceived and no apology necessary. Thank you for your integrity.
I agree the new guys who practiced were beating the old guys who did not. I admire their determination for doing so. I agree whole-heartedly that a quality design/ knife is on a par with skill level.

Jparnee,

Glad you like the knife they really do perform well. But as reflected in several other posts, designs have progressed. This one is now somewhat outdated for competition. They are however great camp/ utility knives and fared rather well on /www.knifetests.com

Jim
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Actually Mr.Crowell, "fared rather well" may be an understatement considering the MUCH more expensive and "beloved" knives that your knife was up against, IIRC.;) I don't really have much to do with factory knives, but I have suggested that several people take a look at that knife, especially in light of what you can get one for from the on-line discounters. Bang for the buck in spades!!!
 
Just an FYI everybody - Jim Crowell has always been one of the best competiton cutters out there, whether he practices or not ! When Jim won the competition at Warren Osborne's cutting school it was simply one of the best cutters using one of the best knives and the results speak for themselves.

Thank goodness Crowell doesn't practice - if he started competing again and actually practiced we would all be in trouble.

Later
 
resinguy said:
This is a great thread. :thumbup:

Jim Crowell, welcome to BladeForums! Stick around and join some other discussions. We spoke at Blade again this year, you will recall that I had bought one of your old camp/competition knives from a dealer back at Blade 2007. I used that knife to win a little backyard cutting comp a buddy put together for some friends. Since I have no skill, it must have been the knife.

I spoke with some makers at Blade this year about competition knives, as I have weakness for choppers. My impression is that the current crop of knives are the equivalent of finely tuned racing machines, perfect for the peculiar demands of competition, but not as broadly practical for a regular user as the camp knives from which they evolved.
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I spokes with Mssr's Bradley and Osbourne at the Guild Show last year about their knives. Those thing are DEFINITELY "finely tuned racing machines" as you say. To hear those guys talk about how just a tiny bit of work on the belt grinder can take the edge from one that won't cut rope worth a hoot to perfect or to one that collapses the first time it sees a hardwood dowel was very enlightening. I asked what the primary purpose was for taking out the distal taper and using the "cleaver" style and they told me that those two changes greatly increased the size of the "sweet spot" I also noticed that the new knives are rather thin at the spine compared to what one my be used to seeing from a heavy use blade that size. I made hidden tang camp knife for a Marine Corps colonel that used the hole drilled in the short upper bout of the guard for the forward mounted lanyard and it works very well.
 
Oh, and as for the original title of this thread, it a "dog and pony show" puts butts in the seats and exposes more folks to the custom knife game, then it is a good thing.:thumbup:;)
 
Even the term "dog and pony show" gets under my skin a little. David, I know you were repeating what someone else said in that regard.

It is a show, of course, but one worthy of watching, because it helps folks come to a better appreciation for the time and skill it actually takes to make a knife that will do some of these things. I'm fascinated by it and still want to get a closer look at the Bladesport guys knives. They've taken it to a new level. :thumbup:

Any cutting demonstration is an eye opener to the public and that should be promoted.

Dan, this is not to dispute the Bladesports' view of a full tapered tang being stronger. I'm sure in most cases it is. I do think that a well constructed hidden tang is more than adequate for anything a competition can dish out and there are ways to manipulate the balance and keep the forward lanyard intact. They key is well constructed, of course. The tolerances have to be somewhat tighter for a hidden tang to be on par with a full tang knife in regards to guard fit, tang size and hardness, etc.

There in lies the importance of competitions, in general. They teach eveyone involved to make or buy the absolute best knife for the operation, which means you would have to give primary consideration to strength and safety. The competition creates an environment for learning and improving, because nothing short of excellent will be able to compete.

I compete for fun, but I take the safety considerations very seriously when it comes to knives falling apart. I would like to see more emphasis placed on tolerances of fit and strength of construction. Teachers, Writers, etc can play a big part in stressing the importance of this. I think it will eventually help us all.

Sorry for rambling. Lin
 
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Great info here from some very informed sources - thanks to all.

Let me ask a question that will hopefully help me better understand the difference between my perception and that of others on the "knife versus the competitor" question.

There's no question that in order to win, both knife and competitor have to be very good indeed - and that is why looking to the winner doesn't tell us much about whether one element is more significant, and if so, which one.

Take this scenario: A field of 20 cutters - one of whom finishes last. He is new to competitions and relatively new to making. He is competing with a solid, serviceable knife of his own design - but one which falls short in a number of design features that would be found on the very best competition designs.

Okay - take that knife away from him, put a top notch first rate competition knife in his hands and run it all again. His experience level is marginally improved, his knife is significantly improved. Is his position going to improve at all? A little? A lot?

Putting myself in the place of that competitor, I'm thinking that a repeat of last place - or something quite close to it - is likely.

Do others think differently? If so, why?

Roger
 
Obviously it depends a lot on the field of competitors. A lot of these guys are so good that one can be a good cutter and still finish last. In the ABS days there was much more diverse group of cutters skill wise.

In my first cutting contest I has bad technique coupled with poor knife design and finished last, or there about out of 15-20 cutters. I watched how others cut, looked at their knives, got some pointers and finished 3rd in my next cut out of a field of 15 or so. I cut in 4 more contests and did ok in all of them. Thought I was pretty good.

Than I cut in an ICCT cut in PA. Where I could cut 11 water bottles if I was really on, these guys could cut 18. I could cut 3 ropes on a good day and these guys could cut 10 or so at that time, many more now. In that field I could improve quite a bit and still thoroughly embarrass myself.

I guess the short answer to your question is that in the ABS days a guy with a good knife and decent technique could place fairly well, I don't think thats quite so in todays competitions.
 
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