Cutting sharpening choils

I appreciate the aesthetic argument, and certainly there are some blades I wouldn't mess with for that reason. As for practicality, I don't understand how a sharpening choil is any more snaggy than a right angle ricasso that butts right against the sharpened edge. Of course it is possible to sharpen the heel of the blade without a choil, but it's certainly a pain the arse and if you're using stones it puts a lot of wear-and-tear on the edges of the stone, which is the only place you can use to get that last 1/4". This will quickly wear out the edges of a diamond plate, for example. It's also impossible to reach that area with a guided system without reclamping. As far as just not sharpening that area, that's a bad option too, as it eventually creates a recurve well beyond the last 1/4".

Yeah, pretty much disagree with most of that about sharpening and stone wear

But here is my take on the two,

A racisso creates a stop and the sharp edge goes all the way too it, like a mora. When you add a choil you create a flat edge and large divot in the blade for material to get caught in. Try to cut any large material, animal hide, clothing, cardboard, etc and the choil eventually hangs up on the material being cut. With a racisso style you can drive the blade all the way to the racisso and because it extends below the cut it acts as a surface guide leading the cutting edge through the material.
 
Well, if you have some way of sharpening the last 1/4" with a stone or plate without using the extreme edge of the stone or plate, I'm all ears.

As far as tools, I just remembered that I have diamond triangular sticks for the Sharp Maker I never use anymore which will be perfect for this task.
 
diamond triangular sticks for the Sharp Maker I never use anymore which will be perfect for this task.
do the diamonds have rounded egdes? of course you could use them then for this task, but the kresil wouldnt. i prefer to sharpen right into the corners of the ricasso and one can do that only with a sharp 90° angled stone.

btw, the 204M 204F 204UF have a R1 rounded egdes
 
do the diamonds have rounded egdes? of course you could use them then for this task, but the kresil wouldnt. i prefer to sharpen right into the corners of the ricasso and one can do that only with a sharp 90° angled stone.

btw, the 204M 204F 204UF have a R1 rounded egdes
Yeah, the Spyderco triangular sticks have chamfered edges, so they'll work well. Can use the brown and white sticks to clean up, too.

Just watched your video and that's a very good method for systems with magnetic tables. A little more work for clamp-based systems but doable.
 
Like what grits to sharpen to or angles it just depends on your personal preference. I like small choils so it is easy to sharpen right up to them, no muss, no fuss, and I have yet to have one get caught on anything I have cut. If you don't mind touching them up then they don't have to be very big at all, just the depth of the bevel.
 
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^Sweeping grinds need larger choils ^


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Before I touched it.

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Afterwards. Notice that the choils are sharpened away now. Nice sharp corners I think even K kreisler would approve. Lol
 
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Well, if you have some way of sharpening the last 1/4" with a stone or plate without using the extreme edge of the stone or plate, I'm all ears.

As far as tools, I just remembered that I have diamond triangular sticks for the Sharp Maker I never use anymore which will be perfect for this task.

Why wouldn't you use the whole stone? How do you expect to get to the inner joint of the edge and racisso without starting at the edge of the stone? You don't need to use any more pressure, and it won't hurt the stone unless you are being too aggressive. I have DMT stones that are 10 years old and have sharpened truck loads of knives, especially very hard steel Spyderco's and my plates have aged like a fine leather coat. Same for oil stones or waterstones, you need to use the stone for all that it is worth but you also need to put pressure on the knife in all the correct places.

When I teach someone to sharpen I ask that they imagine things differently, to look at sharpening from a different perspective. You are not holding an angle and you are not slicing from the stones, you are holding two flat surfaces together and keeping a bond with pressure.

First you must understand that the bevel and the stone are just two flat surfaces and we want to keep these surfaces in as flat of contact as possible at all times, and with all points of the blade. Now on to the real important part, the pressure one usually applies to a knife in sharpening is equal to the way someone holds a hammer to drive a nail, while often using the free hand as a guide pushing from the spine. Pinch the handle between the middle finger and thumb like a machete while leaving the index finger free. I tend to move my thumb to the spine for more control (like a thumb forward grip) and as the edge is making contact with the stone the index finger is used to put pressure on the lowest section of the racisso. You want to push to the earth with your index finger at all times, this is what holds two flat surfaces together or for most.. this is how to control the edge angle. Thumb on spine is forward movement, up and down vertical movement of the handle is to follow the curve and lastly, the freehand is used to apply additional edge pressure and grinding control. That, is sharpening in a nutshell.

In your case and for most that sharpen a Spyderco they are not use to the constant curve of the Spyderco profile. The natural tendency most have is to sharpen as if the blade has a flat section before the belly but this is not the case with Spyderco and it tends to lead to an area of about 1/4-1/2 in. that is untouched at the back of the blade. Finger placement from the freehand needs to be all the way back at the racisso while the main control hand is lowering the handle far enough so the edge is making starting contact all the way in that corner, index finger pressure is also important here.

The sharpener needs to imagine the contact point on the stone is only 1mm wide, you only sharpen 1mm at a time. When you think of it like this you learn to control where you sharpen.
 
Why wouldn't you use the whole stone? How do you expect to get to the inner joint of the edge and racisso without starting at the edge of the stone?
I think you're not getting what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about sharpening knives that have been properly ground to the ricasso. I'm talking about repeatedly having to fix very wear resistant, very high hrc knives that have been left virtually unground for the final several millimeters butting up against the ricasso. If you do this dozens of times, of necessity putting all of the contact and pressure on those same 2-3 millimeters at the edge of the plate, then it WILL wear out that extremely narrow strip, rendering that particular plate useless for that particular purpose ... but still perfectly useable for any knife with a proper sharpening choil.

Example:

DMT.jpg

As shown above, there are hardly any diamonds left at the extreme edge of this Xtra course DMT plate that's less than a year old, while the rest of the plate is still in good condition. It wouldn't be an issue if every knife maker ground their blades properly, but in my experience, the ones who don't provide sharpening choils almost universally do not grind their edges properly. Even some who do provide sharpening choils sometimes don't make the choil big enough to clear the plunge, which presents the same problem.

As much as I appreciate the sharpening lesson, I've been sharpening knives for more than 40 years and have a pretty firm grasp of the principles and practices involved.
 
"Racisso" is starting to burn into my retinas. Ricasso, bitte schön.

Anyway, there's not a thing wrong with a small relief at the end of the cutting edge. I have never had one snag on anything, and it makes things a little easier when sharpening with a stone or hone that may not be perfectly flat or sharp cornered. If you are getting snags, I would suggest that the relief is cut too deep. It can also be angled back toward the edge rather than left semicircular.
 
"Racisso" is starting to burn into my retinas. Ricasso, bitte schön.

Anyway, there's not a thing wrong with a small relief at the end of the cutting edge. I have never had one snag on anything, and it makes things a little easier when sharpening with a stone or hone that may not be perfectly flat or sharp cornered. If you are getting snags, I would suggest that the relief is cut too deep. It can also be angled back toward the edge rather than left semicircular.
!00% agree.
No choil is hard on my stones and it promotes a recurve in the edge over time.

Maybe it's not an issue with belts or something?
I don't know....
 
3D Anvil 3D Anvil I totally agree. That rounded spot at the Ricasso ruins the corners of stones, which in turn ruins the next knives that ate sharpened. that is why I rely on a small grinder to do the bulk of the removal. Its also why I use diamond plates.

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It will keep getting worse. Which is why it is the first thing I addresss when sharpening a new knife.
 
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It's all about technique, I've performed this task thousands of times more that most people will ever and my stones are fine. Have I done it wrong and wore stones out? Yes, but it gets expensive to be foolish and not modify technique as to not ruin expensive tools. It's also a good reason to find a good cheap plate for abusive grinding, cuz sometimes you can't avoid it when fixing a damaged blade. But besides that, if you are wearing out the edge of your diamond plate it is because you are pushing too hard, and that's on you not the plate.
 
Never said we had to agree on anything. You posed a question to which I had different views and I expressed them. Then you asked me a question directly which I replied to, and with further conversation it became more obvious sharpening technique was more of an issue. Causing unnecessary damage to your stones is not the fault of the knife but of your own doing by pressing too hard. That, is just fact.
 
Sorry, but no, it's not a fact, and you have no idea how hard I'm pressing on my stones. What is a fact is that repeatedly stressing a 1-2mm section of anything is going to cause that very small area to wear faster than the surrounding area. That is incontrovertible.
 
Never said we had to agree on anything. You posed a question to which I had different views and I expressed them. Then you asked me a question directly which I replied to, and with further conversation it became more obvious sharpening technique was more of an issue. Causing unnecessary damage to your stones is not the fault of the knife but of your own doing by pressing too hard. That, is just fact.
Can we see some pictures ? It's kind of hard for me to believe that you can do this without damaging the edge of the stone .
 
Sorry, but no, it's not a fact, and you have no idea how hard I'm pressing on my stones. What is a fact is that repeatedly stressing a 1-2mm section of anything is going to cause that very small area to wear faster than the surrounding area. That is incontrovertible.
You are absolutely right . I made enough knives, put the first edge on them and if there was no small choil I would destroy the edges of all mine DMT stones .
 
Correct me if I'm wrong (because generally I'm not allowed to use tools ever since . . . the incident), but if you have the tools to cut a ricasso, couldn't the same tools be used to remove most of the metal of the unsharpened section of blade next to the ricasso? That would reduce the amount of wear on stone edges.
 
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