D-2 or ZDP-189

[Knife Outlet]

There is no question that ZDP will hold an edge longer. it is significantly harder. While D2 has more abrasion resistance, it doesn't make up for the difference in hardness in that one characteristic. Personally, I don't like ZDP and I like D2 a lot. The reason is that ZDP is brittle and chippy while D2 does about everything you could want in a knife blade really well.

If you choose a small folder and the ZDP is laminated with a soft steel, then it can work out pretty well. Personally, I stay away from ZDP that is not laminated. Many people disagree, of course.

 

[Gator97]

I think if most of the D2 knives were hardened at 64 HRC, like Yoshikanes it'd have reputation of very chippy for edc use.
I doubt lamination helps with edge microfracturing, core is exposed anyway,

 

[Ankerson]

I figure your use was quite harder than a chef's knife
Interesting part is, what would happen if you had D2 at 63-64HRC, with 9 per side angle for the same test.

Just cutting rope, small Zip Ties and cardboard so it wasn't too bad.

 

[Gator97]

Zip ties are pretty hard plastic. Depending on the cutting method, you can chip the blade quite badly, or roll it it it's soft.

 

[Ankerson]

Zip ties are pretty hard plastic. Depending on the cutting method, you can chip the blade quite badly, or roll it it it's soft.

The ones I cut were pretty small and thin.

But yeah the thicker ones can snap a tip off a blade in a heartbeat or chip and roll an edge.

 

[Gator97]

Agreed.

Since we're comparing D2 vs ZDP-189, it'd be fair to use D2 with 9 per side angle at 64 HRC and then discuss which one is chippy
If I ever get one of those smaller yoshikanes, I'll send you one over for your tests, it'll be much more convincing the all the talk here.

 

[Ankerson]

Agreed.

Since we're comparing D2 vs ZDP-189, it'd be fair to use D2 with 9 per side angle at 64 HRC and then discuss which one is chippy
If I ever get one of those smaller yoshikanes, I'll send you one over for your tests, it'll be much more convincing the all the talk here.

Dunno what D2 would do really.

I was just say'n that ZDP got small micro chips at 9 Degrees per side during my testing. I am not the only one that has seen this either, others who have taken it down to around that or lower have had the same thing happen to them. There is some talk over on the Spyderco forum on this.

We know that ZDP won't take much impact, that's been discussed also.

 

[Knife Outlet]

I think if most of the D2 knives were hardened at 64 HRC, like Yoshikanes it'd have reputation of very chippy for edc use.
I doubt lamination helps with edge microfracturing, core is exposed anyway,

Yes but the converse would not be true. Soft ZDP doesn't do anything for anybody. The Yoshikane is my personal favorite gyuto. it is fabulous. Not chippy in the least.

No, lamination does nothing about edge chipping. It makes a big difference, however, for things like snapping off tips. I've done that twice personally with ZDP and not because I prying. Both were knives that weren't laminated. So it is just a personal experience sort of thing.

 

[Gator97]

I agree ZDP-189 will break easier when it's at 65 and above. I'm not so sure there is a steel today that won't suffer the same fate, if not at lower hardness.
Although, that's more of a brittleness than chipping.

 

[Ankerson]

I agree ZDP-189 will break easier when it's at 65 and above. I'm not so sure there is a steel today that won't suffer the same fate, if not at lower hardness.
Although, that's more of a brittleness than chipping.

Brittleness is what helps chipping.

A brittle steel will chip easier than a tougher, less brittle steel.

Brittleness is what makes the edge chip instead of dent or roll.

 

[Gator97]

Yeah, I understand that much Pretty obvious isn't it?
Just, when we talk about chipping it is about the edge chipping, while blades breaking in half or snapping off tips is not what you'd call chipping.

Given your tests, you can say ZDP-189 is more brittle or chippy at 63-64HRC than D2 at, not sure what did you use, but somewhere 60-61HRC right?

My point is, to make more fair comparison, or general statement such as "ZDP is more chippy than D2", both should be at their max, and for D2 it's 64HRC.

Rest assured, I have no doubts that 60HRC steel would be tougher than 64HRC.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, I understand that much Pretty obvious isn't it?
Just, when we talk about chipping it is about the edge chipping, while blades breaking in half or snapping off tips is not what you'd call chipping.

Given your tests, you can say ZDP-189 is more brittle or chippy at 63-64HRC than D2 at, not sure what did you use, but somewhere 60-61HRC right?

My point is, to make more fair comparison, or general statement such as "ZDP is more chippy than D2", both should be at their max, and for D2 it's 64HRC.

Rest assured, I have no doubts that 60HRC steel would be tougher than 64HRC.

OK, I was just making sure we where on the same page. :thumbup:

Whatever Spyderco Hardens their ZDP at.

 

[Gator97]

Yeah, we are
It'd be interesting if D2 blades were made at 64HRC, as far as I can tell nobody even risks it. Does work for kitchen knives though.

 

[Twindog]

Too many variables to just say one or the other. But D2 is most likely going to be a little more forgiving while offering exceptional edge holding. Good D2 with a mirrored edge is a thing of wonder.

 

[THG]

ZDP-189 was crap in the 2 knives that I used it: a Delica and Endura. I don't know if it just sucks at cardboard, but it couldn't cut down more than a couple boxes without leaving me with a completely dead edge, i.e. I couldn't even take any fingernail enamel off with it.

 

[Knife Outlet]

I agree ZDP-189 will break easier when it's at 65 and above. I'm not so sure there is a steel today that won't suffer the same fate, if not at lower hardness.
Although, that's more of a brittleness than chipping.

Really? The only blade steels I've had that broke off a tip without prying were a special high hardness 440C that was available back in the 90's and ZDP. Both very brittle steels. I'm not up with the current terminology. How do brittleness and chipping differ? I've always considered brittleness as the foundation for edge chipping.

 

[Gator97]

As I understand, chipping refers to edge, brittleness to the whole knife. Other than that, ye, obviously brittleness is the reason of foundation for chipping.

ZDP-189 was crap in the 2 knives that I used it: a Delica and Endura. I don't know if it just sucks at cardboard, but it couldn't cut down more than a couple boxes without leaving me with a completely dead edge, i.e. I couldn't even take any fingernail enamel off with it.

That sounds more like a wire edge.

 

[DennisStrickland]

ditto to gator on thg's wire edge. i cut thru muddy ton bun poly netting on 4 ton buns with lots of mud --no chipping. for city guys ---ton buns are 1000 lb. hay rolls.
dennis

 

[THG]

That sounds more like a wire edge.

ditto to gator on thg's wire edge. i cut thru muddy ton bun poly netting on 4 ton buns with lots of mud --no chipping. for city guys ---ton buns are 1000 lb. hay rolls.
dennis

I know it sounds like it, but it wasn't. ZDP-189 was actually one of the easier steels for me to sharpen since it didn't burr as easily. Whenever I sharpened it, I could get it to split coarse hairs, and running my nail across the edge, it wouldn't take off more enamel on one side compared to the other.

I'm sure there wasn't a wire edge, but you're right, the way it dulled, you would think that there was one.

 

[nozh2002]

Which seems to have better edge holding characteristics?

Best results on edge retention testing shown by heat treated by Dozier D2, worse results shows also D2. ZDP on Spyderco Endura is on 3rd place in edge retention tests.

Price for Dozier Folder is around $500, Delica street price - about $80. Also ZDP is stainless, however difference is not really big.

Properly heat treated ZDP-189 is quite tough, it is not toughest, but tougher them many. Here my proves:

http://www.youtube.com/user/nozh2002?feature=mhum#p/u/31/O0PHxVP6WSo

No more chips then other steel.

So if you want best for any coast - buy Dozier D2.
If you want second best - try to fins CTS-XHP, but I guess Manix2 is gone already.
Spyderco Endura with ZDP-189 would be good as well, especially from price point of view.

I will not buy regular D2.

Also with Spyderco ZDP-189 you may got some knife with poor heat treatment - I hear quite a bit of report like THG and other people I have no reason not to trust. Spyderco recently stop selling ZDP-189 Mule for this reason (while my ZDP189 Mule seems to be OK). As well I have myself some edge chipping problem with Spyderco Bob Lum "Chinese" model.

Thanks, Vassili.