D2 and 1095 makes a comeback why not 440C

Both 440C and 154CM were developed for bearings. I still see bearings spec'ed out as being made from 440C.
 
I love both D2 and 440C in the right knife, 440c is under rated. As said above there are many knives made in china marked 440c when they are not 440c but the "china equivalent" . The same is true with AUS 8a. Let me just say that if a knife is made in china and it says 440c it's more than likely not 440c.
By the way, all of Cold Steel's knives made in China marked AUS-8A are made with "japan made" AUS-8A
 
yoopernauts™;6066800 said:
Wasn't 440C first developed to make the rotating vanes found in jet turbine engines?
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REAL-440-c is excellent steel. 154-cm is the steel developed for turbine blades. It is 440-c modified for higher hot hardness. That's right folks. 154-cm is modified 440-c. Ats-34 is the Japanese copy of 154-cm.

(I can't tell you how many times I have had people bring knives into my shop for sharpening complaining that their factory 440-c blade just wouldn't hold an edge. In over 30 years of hearing and seeing this, NOT ONCE was the blade 440-C. The casual buyer assumes that 440 is the "C" grade!
It Ain't!!! 440-A and B are not cutlery grades. C doesn't mean it is the third type of 440 steel, it means it is a Cutlery Grade of steel. A totally different animal.)

Bob and Jim (as in Bob Loveless and Jim Merritt of Loveless Knives) were having a hard time getting 154-cm. This was back when Crucible was owned by Colt. Yep, same Colt as the Gun Company. So they flew to Japan, met with Hitachi, and the rest is as they say is history.

D-2 is and has always been a very good steel. Problem was, it was very hard on tooling in the manufacturing processes required to make knife blades. It doesn't like to be blanked,(The water jet has solved most of this problem.) It Kills cutting tools! (Cheaper, and more available carbide, and diamond industrial tooling and the CNC have largely solved these problems) And it's tendency to quickly work harden have kept it from popularity in the "factory" made cutlery industry for many year's. With modern machining techniques, it is on a come back big time. Some of the newer cutlery steels were designed with manufacturing in mind first and for most. And we as users are being let down. chipping, edge turning, hard to sharpen. I'll take 440c, 154-cm, D=-2 over steels like s30v any day! And if that's not good enough, there is always 154-cmp, and d2-cpm, not to mention BG-42.

M.Lovett
 
D-2 is and has always been a very good steel. Problem was, it was very hard on tooling in the manufacturing processes required to make knife blades. It doesn't like to be blanked,(The water jet has solved most of this problem.) It Kills cutting tools! (Cheaper, and more available carbide, and diamond industrial tooling and the CNC have largely solved these problems) And it's tendency to quickly work harden have kept it from popularity in the "factory" made cutlery industry for many year's. With modern machining techniques, it is on a come back big time. Some of the newer cutlery steels were designed with manufacturing in mind first and for most. And we as users are being let down. chipping, edge turning, hard to sharpen. I'll take 440c, 154-cm, D=-2 over steels like s30v any day! And if that's not good enough, there is always 154-cmp, and d2-cpm, not to mention BG-42.

M.Lovett
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M Lovett, you're the only one who has given me a logical reason for the D2 comeback. The water jet, CNC's, and other modern machining sound like the reasons that D2 is now being used in production commpanies. Thanks.
 
I like 440C okay, but I honestly don't think that it performs any better than Buck's 420HC or AUS-8.

It also begs the question: why settle for 440C when S30V and VG-10 are so readily available?
 
It also begs the question: why settle for 440C when S30V and VG-10 are so readily available?
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A knife with a S30 steel is going to cost much more than one with a 440C. I honestly feel that the average knife user would'nt be able to tell the difference. I've been collecting customs and factories for over 20 yrs. and I don't think I would be able to tell the difference.
 
Okay you guys lets get some facts now. I see alot of words like "better" "cheaper" "good" "really good" "very" and "average". I dont know what any of these words mean. Every body uses them differently.

Does any body have any quantitative measure of edge retention like off a CATRA machine? Or what about $/pound for these various steels? Or stain measured in in/in that induced work hardening? Or maybe even Yeild strength or Ultimate strength of these steels?


Anybody?
 
ROBB said:
A knife with a S30 steel is going to cost much more than one with a 440C.
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Not always....

You can get a Spyderco Native with an S30V blade (and made in the U.S.A.) for about $45.00 dollars.

HPIM4868.jpg


Or a Buck 110 with S30V for less than $70.00 dollars....

HPIM4757.jpg
 
I think best property of "retro" steel - they are cheap, but if you compare price for same model with 154CM it is same. So with little marketing - making this steel looks like super steel, you can make way more profit. And it is not only steel price but manufacturing coast (more belts, more expensive belts, complicated heat treatment...) etc... With steel property being not too bad actually (but not as good as ZDP189 or CPM S90V or even CPM S30V), to really notice by most knife enthusiasts it is a pretty good deal for manufacturers.

Honestly, this way of commitment to shareholders is way better then outsoursing manufacturing to communist China.

However, personally, I rather see knife industry do modern supersteel race then this retro thing. I prefer to see knives with US made supersteel CPM S125V which outcut everything (1200) rather then WorldWar II tool steel - D2.

Price from McMaster-Carr

D2 1/4"x2"x12" - $12.90
CPM S90V 0.156"x2"x18" - $89.77
CPM M4 1/4"x2"x18" - $208.79

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Manife said:
Okay you guys lets get some facts now. I see alot of words like "better" "cheaper" "good" "really good" "very" and "average". I dont know what any of these words mean. Every body uses them differently.

Does any body have any quantitative measure of edge retention like off a CATRA machine? Or what about $/pound for these various steels? Or stain measured in in/in that induced work hardening? Or maybe even Yeild strength or Ultimate strength of these steels?


Anybody?
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Here is one:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3681800&postcount=35

this is another:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589139

Thanks, Vassili.
 
In my opinion 440C isn't quite in the same category as D-2, which could help explain why it didn't make the "comeback" that D-2 did.
The marketing explanation is most logical though (too many crappy knives marked "440C).

Personally. I'll take some good 440C over something like AUS-8 any day, but D-2 comes closer to the performance of CPM S30V in some tests (depends on conditions). And being semi-stainless gives D-2 some positive edge characteristics as well.
Then you have the more recent CPM D-2, which is one of my favorite steel types overall. When used with the CPM process, D-2 is both harder and tougher, while keeping it's already good edge holding. If you're going to pit it head to head with S30V, I'm sure S30V would win on paper (or cardboard... ohh I'm bad), but so much of what a knife has to do isn't just rubbing the edge back and forth on abrasive material. Even if practical results have often said that S90V is better than ZDP-189 (high wear resistance versus high hardness), I still prefer the harder material, if only in principle.
I'm also one of those darksiders who grind everything down super thin, which helps in the preference of harder steel.

Hopefully CPM S110V will be the best of both worlds (now I just need to convince Sal to do a Military sprint run).
 
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nozh2002 you are awesome. Is there a place on bladeforums where the quantitative measurements from various tests are stored. If not there should be. This looking through thousands post for scientific information is not working out well for me.

I dream of a massive spread sheet organized by company and knife model showing. Rockwell , steel, edge retention off CATRA, edge angle, corrosion resistance represented by hours in 95% humidity to induce corrosion, static load lock strength in ft/lb, ISO 9000 company?

A go to place for objective test results will quickly define the best knife for the job. We will not just rely on personal experience and opinions. We will be scientists and raise the knife industry to a level that will inspire innovation and attract our best minds to create greatness.
 
Manife, the companies that paid to buy the equipment needed, or paid for independant labs have no real reason to share their information with others that didn't put the time and money into it. To give away information they paid for to potential competitors for free doesn't sound real appealing in an environment becoming more and more competitive all the time.

I'd agree it would be nice to have that kind of information though. Joe
 
440 c is great steel but it is hard to compete with the newer steels. The consumer pays for the newer steels so that may be why they are going back to the older steels to keep the cost own. I am loving this thread as my signature line says so too
 
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Road and Track does it with cars. Blade should do it with knives.

I realize the makers wont want to share there own data. But an outside source like blade magazine could make there magazine more appealing if they did tests and published there results. Imagine if Blade Magazine deamed that Knife XXXX from companyXXXX had the fastest automatic open by .023 second over the second fastest. That would be rad.
 
440C made a comback for me, Benchmade has two excellent made in the USA fixed blades in 440C, I bought a RANT DPT - awesome knife.
P
 
My guess would be because 440C is still widely used and always has been fairly steady.

STR
 
Manife said:
nozh2002 you are awesome. Is there a place on bladeforums where the quantitative measurements from various tests are stored. If not there should be. This looking through thousands post for scientific information is not working out well for me.

I dream of a massive spread sheet organized by company and knife model showing. Rockwell , steel, edge retention off CATRA, edge angle, corrosion resistance represented by hours in 95% humidity to induce corrosion, static load lock strength in ft/lb, ISO 9000 company?

A go to place for objective test results will quickly define the best knife for the job. We will not just rely on personal experience and opinions. We will be scientists and raise the knife industry to a level that will inspire innovation and attract our best minds to create greatness.
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I have something like this here on my website:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I have a couple customs in 440C and with a great heat treat to about 59 RC I can't really say anything bad about them. Also, they are pretty good slicers taking a nice edge.
 
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