D2 and 1095 makes a comeback why not 440C

Or a Buck 110 with S30V for less than $70.00 dollars....
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You can get a Spyderco Native with an S30V blade (and made in the U.S.A.) for about $45.00 dollars
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allenC, can you really tell the diference between the Buck 110 with S30V and the same Buck with 420HC with just cutting? Maybe you can but the average knife user can't. Also you mentioned the Buck with S30V can be bought for less than $70. Well the regular Buck 420H can be bought for less than $30.Is the 3 3/4" of S30 steel worth more than double? I think the "super steels" are turning into a sort of status symbol. Yrs. ago I had 2 identical Buck 110's. On cut great and seemed to hold an edge and the other blade chipped and dulled quickly. They were cutting the same thing, cardboard.
 
ROBB said:
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allenC, can you really tell the diference between the Buck 110 with S30V and the same Buck with 420HC with just cutting? Maybe you can but the average knife user can't. Also you mentioned the Buck with S30V can be bought for less than $70. Well the regular Buck 420H can be bought for less than $30.Is the 3 3/4" of S30 steel worth more than double? I think the "super steels" are turning into a sort of status symbol. Yrs. ago I had 2 identical Buck 110's. On cut great and seemed to hold an edge and the other blade chipped and dulled quickly. They were cutting the same thing, cardboard.
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CPM S30V outperform 420HC, however "average user" will not see much difference - absolutely true statement.
Another one like this:
BMW outperform Honda, however "average user" will not see much difference.
Canon SLR will outperform some cheap plastic camera, however "average user" will not see much difference.
LCD Flat screen outperform Tube TV, but "average user" do not care.
Russian Vodka "Jewel of Russia" taste better then "Stolichnaya" from Lithvonia (now it is not Russian any more), but "average user" will not feel it...
Same with many othe products around...
...

So if we looking from the point of spending less money, then 420HC may be better. But if we talking in terms of absolute performance then supersteel are supersteel, but average user can not appretiate this - no doubt about this.

I think this "average user" most likely will buy some made in China $1 knives and will not see difference between it and Buck110 with 420HC or CPM S30V etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
The few knives I have personally made are 440C with a Heat treat from Paul Bos, to 58-59 rockwell. I love 440C with that specific treatment.

However, I cannot do a comparative testing to my D2 knives, or my ATS34 knives, or my S30V knives, beause of different geometries and heat treatments.
My Kershaw Outcast is a big honking chunk of D2, my Benchmade 710 in ATS34 is a little soft, my S30V knives I am building have yet to go Paul Bos, but are pretty large and will be between the Outcast and Benchmade. And my Spyderco Endura 4 is pretty cool and great HT on its VG10 blade , but not a slicer with the obtuse saber grind and the Emerson Wave.

Comparison of these knives is near impossible, cause they fill different niches.

I think alot of the 'super steels' appeal is just to us knife knuts.

That being said I think alot of the "comeback" of "classic" steels has to do with the same thing that makes "super" steels so good.

Technology.

The quality control and the advancement in metalurgy over the past 10 years is remarkable, much less 20-30 years. You can teach an old dog new tricks with new tech from all areas of manufacture.
 
I think 440-C is a victim of the fact that -- at the end of the day -- the blade steel isn't the biggest thing driving knife costs. Aus-8a and 420HC are tougher and cheaper -- marginally easier to grind and resharpen -- in short: what 8a and 420hc lose to 440-c in corrosion resistance or wear resistance isn't sufficent to justify a prcier knife for someone who won't notice or care.

Once you talk about building a knife for the people who prefer 440-c for some reason (it's got a balance of properties that lots of people like) you'd probably have to start competing against 'other' steels that -also- do not enjoy the price benefit of large economies of scale. I'm willing to guess that there would simply be a large enough market for a similar but slightly 'superior' steel bladed knife -- like someting in VG-10 -- and that the greater demand for those knives would drive costs down to the point where it would even be a cheaper knife...

1095 and D2 are probably less vunerable to that 'unhappy middle' sort of effect. 1095 is cheap in a way that any of the other steels mentioned are not. Silly cheap. And it performs. I was never aware of it's being less common...maybe because a couple big makers had a lot of 50100-B laying around? I love properly heat treated 1095. If you look at the tempering and charpy charts of carbon steels in the .90-1% carbon range -- and compare them to the minimally exotic 'usual suspects' of stainless steels you may be shocked to discover that at 63-64HRC 1095 is going to be about as tough as ATS-34 at 61. Or 440-C at 58-59. And if the heat treater knows his stuff -- and the chemistry of your particular melt -- you can get out of this world torsional toughness in the 1095...

I'm obviously a carbon steel fan...

People probably realized that D2 could do a lot of the stuff that ats-34 and company could do -- do it better with a proper heat treatment -- and that it didn't matter at all if you took care of it Just A Really Little Bit; and that it never mattered at all for people who lived in minimally humid parts of the country...
 
The only problem with 440C is carbide breaking out at the edge of very thin edges. Otherwise it's a very good steel. Edge retention is not on a par with the new powdered steels, but corrosion resistance is better.

We recently tested a powdered 440C that should solve the migrated carbide problem. If it goes into production, you may see a return.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
The only problem with 440C is carbide breaking out at the edge of very thin edges. Otherwise it's a very good steel. Edge retention is not on a par with the new powdered steels, but corrosion resistance is better.

We recently tested a powdered 440C that should solve the migrated carbide problem. If it goes into production, you may see a return.

sal
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That would be nice to see in a production blade really. :thumbup:
 
I have a Benchmade 530 in 440C and it's been one of my favorite backup knives for years. It's capable of getting and keeping a very sharp yet easy to touchup edge.

While this knife isn't heavily used, (it IS a 530 after all...) it's only been sharpened a few times and has yet to show any staining or corrosion.

As said above, I'm also not able to tell the difference between 440C and 154CM as applied to slicing tasks.

I do own a number of knives in D2 and while I like the edge retension, the downside is in the resharpening if the blade gets dull.

If knives were offered in 440C, esp. heated right, I wouldn't hesitate in buying more in that material.
 
Sal Glesser said:
The only problem with 440C is carbide breaking out at the edge of very thin edges. Otherwise it's a very good steel. Edge retention is not on a par with the new powdered steels, but corrosion resistance is better.

We recently tested a powdered 440C that should solve the migrated carbide problem. If it goes into production, you may see a return.

sal
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Two words, Sal: MULE TEAM!
 
My question is how many people have use a properly heat treated knife in 440c and not liked it? Examples such as Entrek, benchmade, not just a chinese knock-off.
 
ROBB said:
A knife with a S30 steel is going to cost much more than one with a 440C. I honestly feel that the average knife user would'nt be able to tell the difference. I've been collecting customs and factories for over 20 yrs. and I don't think I would be able to tell the difference.
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I agree! For most cutting tasks 440c and even AUS-8 are enough...
 
Sal Glesser said:
The only problem with 440C is carbide breaking out at the edge of very thin edges.
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That's very interesting; I hadn't heard that before. I wonder if that explains the issues I've had with Benchmade's 440C blades. Some I could get very sharp easily and would hold an edge just fine, some were very difficult to get sharp, and wouldn't hold the edge. I always assumed it was because they took the heat treat just a bit too high (58-60) and was micro-chipping because of that.

We recently tested a powdered 440C that should solve the migrated carbide problem. If it goes into production, you may see a return.
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I would love to see that. I'm sure custom makers would too, as there's still lots today that use 440C because of how well it polishes up.
 
Planterz said:
I would love to see that. I'm sure custom makers would too, as there's still lots today that use 440C because of how well it polishes up.
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I'm sure if they decide to produce it commercially, it will get a lot of buzz. We'll try to get a batch for a Mule Team run and find out how much we can say.

We use regular 440C for our Whale Rescue blade and it's worked very well. They've rescued about half dozen whales and the 440C has held up just fine.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
The only problem with 440C is carbide breaking out at the edge of very thin edges. Otherwise it's a very good steel. Edge retention is not on a par with the new powdered steels, but corrosion resistance is better.

We recently tested a powdered 440C that should solve the migrated carbide problem. If it goes into production, you may see a return.

sal
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Just out of curiosity, is that akin to Kershaw's MIM 4440C?
 
MIM (Metal Injection Molding) is mixing a steel (that is powdered after rolling) with carriers that permit injection molding the steel (and carriers) into a shape. Then processed.

Powdered metals are powdered in the melting process and fused as individual particles before rolling.

sal
 
The only thing I see as a positive in old steels coming back is possible improvement in HT methods.
Modern manufacturing methods like PM can improve their performance to some degree, but I'm not so sure how significant that improvement is.
Other than that, it's just slowing down progress and inventions.
 
allenC said:
I like 440C okay, but I honestly don't think that it performs any better than Buck's 420HC or AUS-8.

It also begs the question: why settle for 440C when S30V and VG-10 are so readily available?
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You must have not experienced 440C made by Entrek(100% American steel and manufacturing). It is leaps and bounds above Chinese made 440C, it is almost as close in performance to my Fallkniven's VG10!:thumbup:
 
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