Damascus billet

[Ken H>]

Looking to bounce a couple ideas around here. It's rainy today so not at all sure I'll get to use the new 12 ton press outside today or not. The next few days should be nice.

First, for Canister Damascus - for a trial run I have plenty of 1.5" square tubing, but it's only 1/16" thick walls. I've got 1084 powder (real fine) and a bit of roller chain. Is there a chance that 1/16" wall will hold together enough for a solid weld with only flat dies?

Next, for a billet I've got strips of 1075 that are 1/8"X1.5"X7" and 15N20 that is .070"X1.5"X7". The idea is to grind all sides clean, clamp in vise and weld 3 spots on each side and one weld down the middle of each end. Weld a holding rod on the end. Since I can't use it today would soaking in kerosene be a good way to hold it until ready to forge in a day or so?

On forging the idea is to place in forge at 2200F, heat until a very dull glow, pull out and sprinkle borax heavy on each side and back into forge until the billet looks like it's glowing the same color as the forge, then leave a few minutes more to be sure it's hot?

Then to press using flat dies and press. Let's say the billet is 1.5" high, how much should I press first run to set the weld? 1/8" all the way length of billet. Heat again before pressing other side? OR - try to press both sides on a single heat?

How thick should I expect the 1.5" billet to be after setting the weld?

After the weld is set how long should the billet be after drawing for cutting and stacking? Would it be best to cut billet in half, weld, draw out again, cut in half again making a total of 4 stacks? OR - would it be best to draw billet out and cut in 1/3rd for a single 3 stack to weld next time?

I know this is all VERY basic, but remember this is my first time with a press. All very new to me and knowing I'm going to make mistakes, I'd like to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible

Thank ya'll for any help and guidance in this endeavor.

Ken H>

 

[weo]

would soaking in kerosene be a good way to hold it until ready to forge in a day or so?

This is what I do, but I don't use flux. However, it seems that more and more bladesmiths here in the NWBA are skipping/ignoring even the cleaning part too (unless there's a lot of crud/grease on the parts), merely stacking and tacking the pieces together and forging.

how much should I press first run to set the weld?

Because you are stuck inside and not forging, you have time to think about this, which on the one hand is great (because I do it too), but on the other hand, if you're worrying, you're probably overthinking. Just keep in mind the main principle: set the weld before starting to draw out.
1/8" is a good goal, but it'll probably take some time to get that amount of motor control. Within a billet or two, you will be able to tell when the welds set, just like under a hand hammer.

Heat again before pressing other side? OR - try to press both sides on a single heat?

To me, this depends on how thick your outer layer is. On my basic billets, my outside pieces are 0.72" 15N20, and they cool quickly, so I only do one heat on each side. When I cut/restack, the individual pieces are now 3/4" so I will do a couple passes each heat because I'm not worried about the welding layer getting to cool.
Another thing I've been noticing, watching other MS, is that they tend to start forging their billets a lot sooner/quicker than I do, sometime it looks like the do one squish to set, then go immediately to forging

After the weld is set how long should the billet be after drawing for cutting and stacking? Would it be best to cut billet in half, weld, draw out again, cut in half again making a total of 4 stacks? OR - would it be best to draw billet out and cut in 1/3rd for a single 3 stack to weld next time?

Completely your choice. For whatever reason, I draw my billets out to 3/4" thick before cutting and stacking, then I cut into 3-6 pieces, depending on what I'm going for with the pattern.

knowing I'm going to make mistakes,

I know you consider these learning experiences and not mistakes.

Have fun!!!!!

 

[Ken H>]

BillyO, thank you for such a detailed reply. When you do fluxless welding, you soak the billet in kerosene before putting in forge. That is the only time? No other flux? Does the success rate seem as high as when using flux (borax)? My idea of soaking in kerosene was a way of keeping the ground sides clean overnight (or day or so) while waiting to do the forge welding. I've seen the videos on not cleaning the steel before making the billet, but for my learning phase I think I'll clean the steel {g}

You mention your 15N20 is .072", that's what I've got. I placed a order a while back with JT for the 15N20 and it's good stuff. I just double checked and my 1075 is actually 3/16" (.186"), should I put double layer of 15N20 for each 3/16" of the 1075 to make the "shiny" layer wided in finished billet? I'm planning a low layer count of only 30 or so layers for finished billet on this first try.

OK, 3/4" for drawn billet - that's the kind of info I'm looking for. I've got a 3/4" square bar I'll cut a 2" section to use as a Kisser block to help with holding thickness.

Ken H>

 

[weo]

No problem, Ken. Don't forget, this is just how I do it, not necessarily the "right" way.

I stopped using flux about 3 years ago because it ruins the bottom of the forge and eventually builds up enough where it gets on anything you put in the forge. So if I build the billet and forge it the same day and it's not going to be sitting around overnight, I won't use the kerosene can.
The last weld failure I had was almost a year ago (https://bladeforums.com/threads/o1-welding-blues-pics-added.1726483/#post-19727261)
but I don't think lack of flux had anything to do with this.

My idea of soaking in kerosene was a way of keeping the ground sides clean overnight (or day or so) while waiting to do the forge welding.

My thinking exactly, just not sure how necessary this is anymore. But I'll keep doing it this way and might think about stopping when my kerosene can gets too low to use.

should I put double layer of 15N20 for each 3/16" of the 1075 to make the "shiny" layer wider in finished billet?

This is totally up to you. It's been mentioned to me before that it's better to have the 1080 on the outside because it's easier to weld to itself when cutting stacking and it's typically thicker and will hold the heat a bit longer. But I haven't had any problems welding the 15N20 to itself.

The only reason I typically put the 15N20 on the outside when starting a new stack is because it's free to me so I can justify using more of it. My 1080 comes in 42" sticks, so I get seven 6-inch pieces per stick (why 6"? see: https://bladeforums.com/threads/wha...bout-your-work.1115736/page-537#post-20019202), so 8 layers 15N20 and 7 layers 1080 = 15 then I go from there. Why don't I use 7 of each? I don't know.
The 'real' answer to the question about what to start with is dependent on the final pattern you want to achieve.

Why I stop at 3/4" thick is because with the above starting stack, it's about as long of a billet: (a) that I can manage with tongs and still able to reach the up/down lever (a benefit to the moveable foot pedal) and (b) that fits in my forge and, (c) it's easier to cut a 3/4" stack than a 1" stack.
You'll probably find you'll end up with a set of kiss blocks. I've got spacers/kiss block made so I can combine them to get from 1/8" to 1 1/2" in 1/8" increments.

Is tomorrow the day? I know I don't need to remind you to have fun.

 

[Ken H>]

Thanks for all the good ideas and help. I was concerned about the 1/16" walls for canister. I've got plenty of that on hand, I just remembered I've got 1/8" wall square tubing, but it's 1-1/4" OD. I think that would make a small canister just to see if I can do it. The idea is to fill with as much other stuff as possible so it takes less of that expensive powder.

I've got a 3/4" kisser block made, got the 1-1/4" canister tube cut and one end welded. I won't fill with material and seal weld the canister until tomorrow - or when ready for forge based on Ed's advice in an earlier post on how to do canister. I don't expect to get the squaring dies made before trying a canister, hoping the flattening dies will work ok. I expect the edges might not be welded as good as should be, but hoping the center of canister billet will have a weld?

I've also got a 15 layer billet of 1075 & 15N20 that's only 3-1/2" inches long ready for welding. I'll get the billet welded up today with handle welded on.

Next for today is a set of flattening dies that are 4" long just for flattening billets after they're drawn down to thickness for blades.

Later

 

[fitzo]

Another tip if you're unused to weld-on handles: go to that steel seller if you have one local and see if there is a bar of 3/4 or 1" "drill rod" aka W2. Should be pretty cheap. Point is, always use this for handles on billets instead of that rebar s**t, oops, alternative. Night and day difference. Weld once and don't worry about until you're done. Nibble away by sacrificing an inch to flat each time so it cuts off easy. Make knives when it gets too short.
It worked out really well for me, at least. YMMV. Tell me to be quiet if need be, I won't be offended. I'm enjoying this vicariously, since I'm no longer physically able. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ken H>]

Naw, keep up the good advice. I normally use 3/4" or so rod of whatever I can find laying around. Make a nice big weld around the butt and I've not had all that much problem with handle burning off, even when forging by hand where lots of heats are required. I've done several SS San Mai billets and a couple of very low layer (9?) Damascus. When I'm forging by arm 'n hammer it takes so many heats I'm sure I'm loosing at least one or two layers to scale.

 

[fitzo]

It definitely takes some effort by hand. Good on you for trying it that way. Passion.

My first Damascus was a weekend spent with Tim Zowada, ca 1987. My wife and I wanted to make it by hand since that's all we'd have at home. Old school O-1 and 1018, 1/4" thick. So, we worked the better part of two days where she struck with a 10-12 pound sledge all weekend. 5 whole foot of tough, my little lady. We got enough for two knives, lost who knows how much and had the time of our lives. Tim sat up on his hammer beam and regaled us with tales while we busted it.
With our last few hours before hitting the road, we made the same billet using his 200lb Bradley hammer.

Have fun. What a wonderful journey.

 

[Ken H>]

Yea, doing it by hand, what I call the "Baking Soda" method (Arm 'n Hammer) is the hard way and lots of metal is lost to scale with all the reheats along the way. I've used a Tire Hammer for a few minutes a few yrs back and they sure do beat arm 'n hammer, but I think I like the press better. I'm told a serious knife maker needs both, but I'll get by with only the press.

My first wife was like that, loved the DIY stuff, and that was a LONG time before the phrase "DIY" was talked about. My current wife is NOT into any of that stuff, but does really like the kitchen knives I make.

I've got my billet soaking in kerosene for tomorrow, got a canister welded up ready for stuff to put inside. Now start gathering stuff for filling the canister so it doesn't take so much powder. I've got some old drill bits, metal odds 'n ends to use, and a bit of roller chain.

Later

 

[fitzo]

Odd bits make some cool looking canister stuff.

Do you vibrate your can when filling? Such as against an upside down pad sander held in a vise?

 

[Ken H>]

This is my VERY first canister but I do plan to vibrate/shake or whatever I can to get the powder into all the empty air spaces. My understanding is an air space equals a void in billet.

In this small 1-1/4" square canister I'm making, how large can the drill bits be? For the 4" long should the drill bits be cut into 1" lengths? OR, can they be full length with the only effect being the pattern? I'm not at all concerned about the pattern, I'm just trying for a clean weld in the canister and Damascus billet both.

 

[weo]

oops, wrong thread. sorry

 

[Blackdirt cowboy]

Man, I’m jealous and excited for you all at the same time. I’m wanting a press so bad. I’m eyeing the 16 ton coal iron press and have about half the money saved up to buy it. I already have a 10 hp motor and am thinking about building a press as well. I’m looking forward to seeing the Damascus you produce.

 

[Ken H>]

BillyO, I'm not sure about the travel speed, but it's pretty fast. Never really thought about needing it faster. I just checked and with ram fully up it's right at 7" between the die plates (no die installed). Press the down, count "1001, 1002" and it's covered that 6-1/2" between the bolts still in die plates. So, I guess it does have a pretty honest 3.5" ips travel speed.

Cowboy - unless you're a full time professional you'd be surprised what you could do with the 12 ton press. Of course a 16 ton would move more steel at once, I'm sure the dies are larger. The dies in the 12 ton are pretty small at only 3" long and fairly narrow at 1.5" wide. This pretty well allows only a flattening die, or a drawn die since there isn't really room for a combo die. That would be nice, but at the price difference I think the 12 ton is going to work for my hobby use nicely.

Ken H>

 

[fitzo]

This is my VERY first canister but I do plan to vibrate/shake or whatever I can to get the powder into all the empty air spaces. My understanding is an air space equals a void in billet.

In this small 1-1/4" square canister I'm making, how large can the drill bits be? For the 4" long should the drill bits be cut into 1" lengths? OR, can they be full length with the only effect being the pattern? I'm not at all concerned about the pattern, I'm just trying for a clean weld in the canister and Damascus billet both.

I'd advise making sure to start out any drill bits you use are plain-ish HC (need something that'll shine) and NOT some high alloy M2 or something that won't move compared to the powder. Too much chance for shear.

While I feel the "stacked 4"-long bits" idea is interesting I think you may be happier with smaller bits this time and perhaps more successful. And I'd stay on the smaller bits about 3/16 and down to tiny.

And, yes, any voids show up as holes or even sections of pourable powder. Sucks. I really like J Nielson's idea of putting the top cover inside the can to help compress everything even more, then weld.

 

[Ken H>]

I've already got the end cap cut to slide inside the canister for when I weld it on. I'll use a C-clamp to really squeeze the plate inside the canister to help prevent any voids.

A question here, is a handle needed to be welded on a canister? Or, would it work ok to have a set of tongs that would hold the canister nicely.

 

[fitzo]

I've already got the end cap cut to slide inside the canister for when I weld it on. I'll use a C-clamp to really squeeze the plate inside the canister to help prevent any voids.

A question here, is a handle needed to be welded on a canister? Or, would it work ok to have a set of tongs that would hold the canister nicely.

All that effort to make sure every last bit of powder is packed in and every space filled will pay off. Kudos on the inside-lid.

You might make it work with tongs. I couldn't for squat, compared to a handle. This is the point that drill rod handle I mentioned was for, at least for me.

 

[weo]

s a handle needed to be welded on a canister?

Probably not needed, but with a handle, you can just forge the whole can in one go, without a handle you have to stop when you get to the tongs and turn it around.

 

[Ken H>]

OK, here's the first results. First photo is 15 layer billet soaking in kerosene overnight. Billet is a tad over 2" high, and 1.5" wide, and only 3.5" long.

Here's billet soaking in forge at 2250F. I put kerosene soaked billet in forge and allowed it to heat to a dull red, then sprinkled borax on the sides. Not a really heavy coat, but did seem to seal. Not totally sure it was needed, but wanted to play it safe on first trial.

Here the finished billet for first press. It's 3/4" thick 1-3/4" wide and a good 7" long. I think my plan is to clean it up a tad, cut in half for another stack. That would give a fairly nice 30 layer billet. Total forging time from putting in forge first time to final about 25 minutes. I shudder to think how long that would take with my old "arm 'n hammer" method.

Later

 

[Hubert S.]

OK, here's the first results. First photo is 15 layer billet soaking in kerosene overnight. Billet is a tad over 2" high, and 1.5" wide, and only 3.5" long.

Here's billet soaking in forge at 2250F. I put kerosene soaked billet in forge and allowed it to heat to a dull red, then sprinkled borax on the sides. Not a really heavy coat, but did seem to seal. Not totally sure it was needed, but wanted to play it safe on first trial.

Here the finished billet for first press. It's 3/4" thick 1-3/4" wide and a good 7" long. I think my plan is to clean it up a tad, cut in half for another stack. That would give a fairly nice 30 layer billet. Total forging time from putting in forge first time to final about 25 minutes. I shudder to think how long that would take with my old "arm 'n hammer" method.

Later

That's awesome. Do you have any pictures and/or video of the press?