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Damascus billet
- Thread starter Ken H>
- Start date
YEs, it's the Coal Iron 12 ton mini-press. Here's a couple photos
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/squaring-dies.1784753/page-2#post-20474905
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/squaring-dies.1784753/page-2#post-20474905
fitzo
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Nice start! Betcher smilin'!
If you think of it, please share a foto of the cleaned up 1st pass billet, especially the sides. I see one little area it'd be nice to see cleaned.
Very cool success first time through. Didn't spread it out like a deck of cards!
I also suggest knocking enough off one end at some point to squish down to 1/16" or so edgewise and make the little lady a pendant to commemorate your first press work.
Looks like a fun Sunday!
If you think of it, please share a foto of the cleaned up 1st pass billet, especially the sides. I see one little area it'd be nice to see cleaned.
Very cool success first time through. Didn't spread it out like a deck of cards!
I also suggest knocking enough off one end at some point to squish down to 1/16" or so edgewise and make the little lady a pendant to commemorate your first press work.
Looks like a fun Sunday!
weo
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I hear you! Revisit this thought in a few months when you get comfortable with the press and start forging out 3 stacks each time you light up the forge.
Too late for first past on the billet. It's already cut in half, welded up and forged down to 3/8" at thin end, but still almost 1/2" at the handle end. I tended to start pressing from end and work toward handle. By the time I'd get to handle end the billet has cooled some and press doesn't press as much at first press.
One drawback to the 12 ton over a 25 ton press - when pressing with flat die, after welds are set solid and billet is well over 1-1/2" wide and taking a full bite with the die it doesn't squeeze much. Best to take about 1/3 or 1/2 of a die width so the weak little 12 ton press will squeeze more each bite. With a fresh stack for first pass it will press plenty, easy 1/4" to 1/2" if you're not careful. With the half round drawing dies, they'll pinch a 1" truck axle in half with one stroke.
I would take a video of press working but it would take more hands than I've got. I'm using both hands, one on tongs, other on lever. My wife isn't too interested in this, nor is she very good with photos.
The billet I just did with a single fold over making 30 layers is now 11" long, 2" wide. I've got to reenforce the handle as it's just about burnt into at the billet. Weight of billet is putting a heavy bend about an inch from billet. Got to find me some 3/4" rod for handles... or make a set of tongs that will hold a "stack" while it's being forged down to perhaps 3/4".
Where I cut the first billet in half the layers all looked solid welded. We'll know more when I start cleaning up the billet after it's thinned down for final cleanup. This is were a combo die set is really needed. Make a pass with drawing dies, then slide over to flattening die without having to change dies.
As BillyO says, once I get a couple months of this under my belt I'll know MUCH more than I know now. AND what I "think" I know now most likely will change with experience.
Later
One drawback to the 12 ton over a 25 ton press - when pressing with flat die, after welds are set solid and billet is well over 1-1/2" wide and taking a full bite with the die it doesn't squeeze much. Best to take about 1/3 or 1/2 of a die width so the weak little 12 ton press will squeeze more each bite. With a fresh stack for first pass it will press plenty, easy 1/4" to 1/2" if you're not careful. With the half round drawing dies, they'll pinch a 1" truck axle in half with one stroke.
I would take a video of press working but it would take more hands than I've got. I'm using both hands, one on tongs, other on lever. My wife isn't too interested in this, nor is she very good with photos.
The billet I just did with a single fold over making 30 layers is now 11" long, 2" wide. I've got to reenforce the handle as it's just about burnt into at the billet. Weight of billet is putting a heavy bend about an inch from billet. Got to find me some 3/4" rod for handles... or make a set of tongs that will hold a "stack" while it's being forged down to perhaps 3/4".
Where I cut the first billet in half the layers all looked solid welded. We'll know more when I start cleaning up the billet after it's thinned down for final cleanup. This is were a combo die set is really needed. Make a pass with drawing dies, then slide over to flattening die without having to change dies.
As BillyO says, once I get a couple months of this under my belt I'll know MUCH more than I know now. AND what I "think" I know now most likely will change with experience.
Later
Remember the billet I had with 15 layers for first run? forged it down to 3/4" and 11" long. Cut in half and got about 3-1/4" good stack with ends cleaned up. Forged that down to about 1/4" thick and 14" long (12" of good solid billet). Looks really good. I used SGA and cleaned up with all the edges cleaned and squared. After SGA it was .190" good clean with no scale looking, just clean surfaces. Got to thinking and got a bit froggy {g}
OK now for Today's report. I cut that 12" clean billet into 3 of 4" sections, tack welded sides, but good handle on, started soaking in kerosene while I got forge and press setup. Again, got stack nice 'n reddish looking, sprinkled a thin layer of borax on edges and put back in forge to soak. Pressed that billet, welded up nicely. I had a nice billet around 12" long and 1/2" thick. My dinky little press has a really hard time pressing after the billet gets around 3/8" thick, so I decided I'm gonna try those drawing dies knowing I've got to be VERY careful or it will pinch the billet into. I was very careful....... but not careful enough. Pinched billet too much at a couple of places and billet came into - now with 3 pieces, and rest is too thin for good cleaning up. Oh well - this is a learning experience - I NEED a decent set up kisser die for the drawing die set so this doesn't happen again.
Next I welded up a San Mai billet - 1/8" 410SS for outside layer, and 1/8" of 1095 for core. Stack is 1-1/4" wide. Seal weld all around stack to seal (normal for SS San Mai I'm told), weld handle on. Get hot and press stack, and now it's a nice solid billet. Pressed so it's now about .170" and should clean up ok with SGA. With a good ceramic 36 grit belt that SGA really does a good job on cleaning a billet. I ground a tad over one corner to see how core looks, about same on both sides:
The core has a fairly straight line, and holding fairly equal from edge. That's something I've always had a really hard time holding the core in the center when forging by hand. I think this press is going to help that.
OK now for Today's report. I cut that 12" clean billet into 3 of 4" sections, tack welded sides, but good handle on, started soaking in kerosene while I got forge and press setup. Again, got stack nice 'n reddish looking, sprinkled a thin layer of borax on edges and put back in forge to soak. Pressed that billet, welded up nicely. I had a nice billet around 12" long and 1/2" thick. My dinky little press has a really hard time pressing after the billet gets around 3/8" thick, so I decided I'm gonna try those drawing dies knowing I've got to be VERY careful or it will pinch the billet into. I was very careful....... but not careful enough. Pinched billet too much at a couple of places and billet came into - now with 3 pieces, and rest is too thin for good cleaning up. Oh well - this is a learning experience - I NEED a decent set up kisser die for the drawing die set so this doesn't happen again.
Next I welded up a San Mai billet - 1/8" 410SS for outside layer, and 1/8" of 1095 for core. Stack is 1-1/4" wide. Seal weld all around stack to seal (normal for SS San Mai I'm told), weld handle on. Get hot and press stack, and now it's a nice solid billet. Pressed so it's now about .170" and should clean up ok with SGA. With a good ceramic 36 grit belt that SGA really does a good job on cleaning a billet. I ground a tad over one corner to see how core looks, about same on both sides:
The core has a fairly straight line, and holding fairly equal from edge. That's something I've always had a really hard time holding the core in the center when forging by hand. I think this press is going to help that.
Update time: Did some work on a twist pattern Wed. This is the start - it's a 13 layer stack I forged out to 14" long, 1" wide and 3/4" high. I cut that into 4 of 3" pieces, stacked 3 of them (forgot the 4th) to give 39 layers. Forged that to a 3/4" square rod, then worked in press to make it a bit more round, then moved to anvil 'n hammer to get this look. This is after a twist, only about 1-1/2 twists. I should have done a tad more reading, I find it really needs 5 or 6 twists to make the pattern look better.
As it is this 1-1/2 twists gives a pattern look like this
if you look at the lower left section what should be the twist pattern shows up just a little. It really NEEDS more twists. I should have done more reading before doing this. I find it needs at least 10 to 20 twists to make a decent twist pattern.
All in all I'd consider this a fail for a twist pattern, but the welds seem to be holding up without delams. It shows I NEED MUCH more guidance on making twist patterns.
Ken H>
As it is this 1-1/2 twists gives a pattern look like this
if you look at the lower left section what should be the twist pattern shows up just a little. It really NEEDS more twists. I should have done more reading before doing this. I find it needs at least 10 to 20 twists to make a decent twist pattern.
All in all I'd consider this a fail for a twist pattern, but the welds seem to be holding up without delams. It shows I NEED MUCH more guidance on making twist patterns.
Ken H>
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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Some comments:
Color is subjective, but the billet at welding heat is much hotter than, "nice and reddish". It should be bright yellow.
Forge a twist a billet as round as possible. Any corner will make a line that will have to be ground off, or may cause an inclusion.
Twist at least 6 twists. Do twists at welding heat. Reheat if it starts to stiffen, and twist some more once back at welding heat.
TIP: Forge one end square. Put that end in the vise and use a pipe wrench with an extra handle welded on the jaw end for the twisting tool on the other end.
Place a piece of steel the desired thickness on the drawing dies to act as a thickness spacer. This will limit the amount the press can squish your billet, and prevent pinching the billet in half. It is pretty simple to figure a way for the piece of steel to be held in place. One way is using a welding magnet. Or, you can forge the piece to fit on the die like a saddle.
Final suggestion - Do yourself a favor and learn one billet weld style flawlessly before jumping to the next. I totally get the excitement of trying new things, but the success rate will be much better if you take your time and learn your way up the ladder.
Color is subjective, but the billet at welding heat is much hotter than, "nice and reddish". It should be bright yellow.
Forge a twist a billet as round as possible. Any corner will make a line that will have to be ground off, or may cause an inclusion.
Twist at least 6 twists. Do twists at welding heat. Reheat if it starts to stiffen, and twist some more once back at welding heat.
TIP: Forge one end square. Put that end in the vise and use a pipe wrench with an extra handle welded on the jaw end for the twisting tool on the other end.
Place a piece of steel the desired thickness on the drawing dies to act as a thickness spacer. This will limit the amount the press can squish your billet, and prevent pinching the billet in half. It is pretty simple to figure a way for the piece of steel to be held in place. One way is using a welding magnet. Or, you can forge the piece to fit on the die like a saddle.
Final suggestion - Do yourself a favor and learn one billet weld style flawlessly before jumping to the next. I totally get the excitement of trying new things, but the success rate will be much better if you take your time and learn your way up the ladder.
weo
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Party pooper!!!!
Having fun yet, Ken?
Yep, note the comment about "nice and reddish" only to sprinkle borax (flux) over edges of billet to help seal from oxidation, or whatever it is that flux does in forge welding. After borax billet is back in forge for a nice soak until the color of billet looks exactly same color as the inside of forge with forge temp showing around 2200°F (closer to 2300°F for SS San Mai), and only then setting welds in press.
That's what I was thinking, the billet needed to be round before starting the twist. First I forged the billet square using "kisser" to assure the billet is 3/4" square on all sizes. Once billet is twisted the billet was heated again to clean any scale, then a quick reheat to square up billet. I understand the billet should be forged square at this step. Only after getting billet square, then grinding to clean up any spots that could cause an inclusion should the billet be forged flat?
Darn, what a good idea - I've made a couple of spacers for the flat die using the saddle method. The half round drawing dies are harder to use a saddle to fit. I'll bet a welding magnet will hold a 3/8" (or 1/4") flat bar nicely across the drawing die. Thanks for that good idea.
Makes sense - I've done a few simple flat Damascus billets, a few by hand, and a couple with the press. The decision to try this twist was something sorta sneaked in during the making of the billet. I had it forged to a nice 3/4" square and thinks, "What if I twist it?" Not really planned at all. Planned would have had me asking these questions before trying the twist.
Right now I'm not worrying about getting any type of pattern, just getting clean welds when doing different layers and twists.
Thanks again for all the guidance, and YES BillyO, having LOTS of fun with the press.
OK, this is the final results I got from the billet started above. This is the first billet, Remember the first was about 1-1/2 twists and about 39 layers. After forging this out to a square billet, I cut into 4 pieces and stacked, and added a single section of th 15 layer that I forgot to add to the first forging. Forged to a long billet, rounded it again and twisted perhaps 8 or so twists and got this. You can see the wide spaces at the top right where the 15 layer section was. While it's not a "fancy" pattern I'm content with my first higher layer billet using the press.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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Just to be clear on making a twist billet.
When doing a twist billet this procedure is best:
1) Solidly weld up billet - 50 to 100 layers is a good number for a twist billet.
2) Make sure the billet is solid! Grind edges clean.
3) Square billet up and grind clean if needed.
4) Knock in the corners to make it octagonal.
5) Grind corners to round them over.
6) Forge into a round bar. Grind clean if needed.
7) Twist as much as desired - usually 2 twists per inch of billet length. Twist at welding heat.
8) Gently forge billet straight and then clean up on the grinder until no grooves remain.
9) Square billet, grind clean, draw out to bar stock.
When doing a twist billet this procedure is best:
1) Solidly weld up billet - 50 to 100 layers is a good number for a twist billet.
2) Make sure the billet is solid! Grind edges clean.
3) Square billet up and grind clean if needed.
4) Knock in the corners to make it octagonal.
5) Grind corners to round them over.
6) Forge into a round bar. Grind clean if needed.
7) Twist as much as desired - usually 2 twists per inch of billet length. Twist at welding heat.
8) Gently forge billet straight and then clean up on the grinder until no grooves remain.
9) Square billet, grind clean, draw out to bar stock.
Yep Stacy, that's pretty much the directions I followed, You gave those a while back when I was asking. I did good on #1, #2, #3 with getting it nice 'n square with all the scale brushed off and looking pretty good. #4 I got the octagonal shape pressed pretty good with scale cleaned.
#5 & #6 I didn't grind, but did get it cleaned up "pretty good" with a fairly decent "roundish" bar with scale cleaned pretty good. I was surprised how well the scale comes on in this step.
#7, I hoping to twist about 1 turn/inch which would be 12 or so turns. I only got 8 turns before it started twisting too much toward the center and looked like it might twist into in middle. I didn't have a double handled wrench at the time, but now have a pipe-wrench with a handle welded to jaw for a double ended wrench.
The next billet I twist I do plan to focus more on the grinding to clean - that's #8 & #9 to have a nice clean billet. This time I was more looking to see if I could get solid welds that wouldn't twist apart when working the billet. The welds were solid - no problems at all there.
Thanks to all for the help and guidance.
Ken H>
#5 & #6 I didn't grind, but did get it cleaned up "pretty good" with a fairly decent "roundish" bar with scale cleaned pretty good. I was surprised how well the scale comes on in this step.
#7, I hoping to twist about 1 turn/inch which would be 12 or so turns. I only got 8 turns before it started twisting too much toward the center and looked like it might twist into in middle. I didn't have a double handled wrench at the time, but now have a pipe-wrench with a handle welded to jaw for a double ended wrench.
The next billet I twist I do plan to focus more on the grinding to clean - that's #8 & #9 to have a nice clean billet. This time I was more looking to see if I could get solid welds that wouldn't twist apart when working the billet. The welds were solid - no problems at all there.
Thanks to all for the help and guidance.
Ken H>
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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You can use a torch to heat the areas not twisting enough, or drip a little water on the areas twisting too much.
You can also grab a section with large channel-lock pliers ir a pipe wrench and give necessary twisting help where needed.
It helps to have a helper when twisting. Let the helper turn the twisting wrench while you heat/cool/assist the twist.
Don't twist any more once it slows down or buckles. Put it back in the oven long before it gets dull red. Twisting is done hot, in the orange-red range..
You can also grab a section with large channel-lock pliers ir a pipe wrench and give necessary twisting help where needed.
It helps to have a helper when twisting. Let the helper turn the twisting wrench while you heat/cool/assist the twist.
Don't twist any more once it slows down or buckles. Put it back in the oven long before it gets dull red. Twisting is done hot, in the orange-red range..
Now that's a good idea - why didn't I think of that while I was twisting? That would heat parts needing more heat, and cool sections that was needed less heat (twisting). I WILL remember that for the next time to twist.
I've got a neighbor that might be interested in helping "IF" I can catch him at home at the right times. That would really help.
That's the temperature range I'm working at - and the middle section seems to hold the heat better (stay hotter) than the ends clamped in vise or with wrench. Heating with torch will be good allowing a bit more heat applied to ends when needed. Won't do it all, but might get an extra turn at the ends where needed before having to go back in forge.
Thanks for ideas.
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weo
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Another thing that can help speed up your twisting, if you're going to do twists often, is to make a twisting jig something like this:
so you can set one jaw to lock in tone square end, and set the other one large enough to let the stock spin freely. This really helps to keep the stock straight as you twist and lets you focus on just twisting as fast as you can while you have the heat.
so you can set one jaw to lock in tone square end, and set the other one large enough to let the stock spin freely. This really helps to keep the stock straight as you twist and lets you focus on just twisting as fast as you can while you have the heat.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
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Another tool that makes twisting billets easier is an pneumatic air-vise. You can find them cheap second hand and add a foot pedal, or just use a valve. I have paid as little as $10 for one. Many even come with the "V" notches to grab a square object.
I have not used one, but there are hand-held electric pipe threaders that sell in the $300 range.
I bet anyone with some skills could build a twisting motor from a surplus gear reduction motor and an old lathe chuck. You also might find a used lathe head with the chuck on it if you search around enough. Being able to twist in both directions is a real plus, so a reversible motor is good.
I have not used one, but there are hand-held electric pipe threaders that sell in the $300 range.
I bet anyone with some skills could build a twisting motor from a surplus gear reduction motor and an old lathe chuck. You also might find a used lathe head with the chuck on it if you search around enough. Being able to twist in both directions is a real plus, so a reversible motor is good.
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Those Rigid threading machines do a really good job of twisting bars, but to actually "need" something like a person should be making twisted Damascus several times a week. Myself - just a hobby to play around with. I'll get by with the big vise I use for clamping the end. Does anybody use the press to clamp and hold one end for twisting?