Dealbreakers

Geode said:
You all have covered every technical aspect I could list, and then some. However, one of the deal killers for me is a knife with no character, or soul, for lack of better words. I have seen some beautifully executed knives, but they just left me feeling nothing special about them. I have seen some that have flaws, but in spite of the flaws, they grabbed me.
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We need to talk at some point.......cause i got soul, but no control.......lol
 
Hi DaveH,

The Sebenza is a very well made knife, as well they should be. After 10,000 + being made all the bugs were worked out of the computer program long ago. They are simple, work well and are affectionately referred to a "Gray Turds".

Most of the tactical folders do meet the "Specs" of the Sebenza. I think makers like Bob Tezuola, Phil Boguszewski, RJ Martin, Scott Cook, Kit Carson, Rick Hinderer, Bob Lum, Mike Obenauf, Pat Crawford Allen Elishewitz, Darrel Ralph and many others would beg to differ with you.

Addititionally, these makers offer many additional choices of handle materials, steels, and finishes. Then there are the different models that each maker offers .

I realize I missed some makers, which ones did you look at that did not measure up?

WWG
 
WWG,

I've owned one piece from one of those makers you just listed, and in my opinion it didn't meet the Sebenza standard. I have heard as much from at least 2 experienced collectors about another of the names you mentionned.

Similarly, the ATCF might be well made from a F&F standpoint, but the ergonomics are not as friendly as the Sebenza's.

In my direct experience of knives I've owned (and I've owned very few of those) the makers that clearly meat / beat the Seb' standard are J. W. Smith (I have 4 of those) and Tom Mayo.
 
All basically covered by the pros.

Forgive me if someone already mentioned these and I missed them, but, for me, an easily discernable secondary bevel on a forged blade is hideous. On damascus it is downright sacrilege.

Less horrible, but still a personal ouch, are stock removal damascus pieces where the pattern is simply ground away in odd places. I admit by bias as a forger here, but I like to see damascus patterns conserved.

John

John
 
I never put mine down. I basically have only one that personally I can't deal with.

Boring handles. I cant stand seeing a knife with countless hours of work, engraving, etc, with simple, flat slab handles. Hands arent flat and other tools will tell you that a handle should fit a hand. I see way too many high end knives with square, straight, flat, uncountoured handles. Some may like them, but they always look to me like the maker just didnt want to put the time into designing a handle beyond taking two slabs of material and slack belting them lengthwise and across.

There are knives where they work or are preferred for multiple grips etc etc....but im taking about otherwise gorgeous bowies with what looks like a rectangle of wood on the handle end, lightly rounded.
 
John Frankl said:
Forgive me if someone already mentioned these and I missed them, but, for me, an easily discernable secondary bevel on a forged blade is hideous. On damascus it is downright sacrilege.
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John, I don't follow you on this. You got a photo of what you mean? Explain, please. I should know what you are talking about, but I'm a numnut. :p

Coop
 
I am with Coop on this one,As a JS Smith I should know what you mean,but my brain isnt funtioning again I guess:D
Please show a pic.
Bruce
 
1. poor grinds.
2. poor finish
3. lack of center, blade play, or poor opening and closing on a folder
4. mis matched scales or handle material


just a few..
 
John Frankl said:
All basically covered by the pros.

Forgive me if someone already mentioned these and I missed them, but, for me, an easily discernable secondary bevel on a forged blade is hideous. On damascus it is downright sacrilege.
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even if there's no secondary bevel on a knife new from the shop - which looks nice -: how i am supposed to sharpen such a knife on a stone without making a secondary bevel and utterly disfiguring the knife's flat sides (esp. damascus)? :confused:

hans
 
Ah, another thing I won't buy: obvious belt finish on a straight steel blade.
 
I realize I missed some makers, which ones did you look at that did not measure up? (to a sebenza)
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I looked at some big names and some people I've never heard of, some I remember some I don't. There's still an element of subjectivity especially in design. Mentioning names would likely just create a distracting set of off topic issues.

My point is that a sebenza is my standard so it has to be meant or exceeded in quality by any custom knife I'm considering. Some did certainly exceed this measure, many did not.
 
I am not a collector so my approach may differ some. I prefer hunter's only. I have a 19yr. old son so I want users for the 2 of us. Some users will be set aside for later. I have no problem with brass or stainless fittings. If the brass looses some luster and gets a few scratches that's fine with me. Same with the blade. I want a knife of at least 3/32 thickness and like both full and hidden tang. When using on a deer give me at least a 3.5" blade with 4" and longer being better. I don't want to have to put my entire arm inside a carcass and a longer knife helps me. If it's a full tang knife I want it to be able to bust thru the brisket almost up to the neck on deer. My Randall is a model 23 with 1/4" thick blade and false edge on about 1/3 of the blades top. I've used the false edge to bust open a deer's pelvis. So if the knife isn't able to be used hard I don't want it. John Nelson Cooper made the toughest, longest cutting blades I have ever owned


I want the grind even on both sides. If it flares some at the grind's beginning I want both sides as evenly matched as possible. I don't want a knife without a guard. If you're going to add a leather thong with the knife at least make it long enough for me to get my hand thru. If I have to stop cutting I hate having to put the knife down. A thong allows it to dangle a little until I resume again. I'm 57 and never been cut by doing this. I am a lover of stag and horn above all else. If you want me to consider your knife for purchase and have no stag or horn available then use the finest looking piece of wood you have. I will not buy micarta any more but did at one time. I will buy knives with beautiful wood. I want a good fit of the handle or slabs where they meet the guard. I will not buy a full tang knife that does not have a tapered tang. If I hold the knife with the blade pointing towards my eye and it has a guard then I want the guard even looking on both sides of the blade as I look at it. I am not a fan of mirror finished blades. If the knife is a user then a subtle flaw in fit will not turn me off but a flaw in the blade's finish will.


Finally, I started collecting back in 1975. I sold most of my collection when I got married. This woman means more to me than any knife. I had knives from Herron, Warenski, Ogg, Sigman, Cooper, Lile, Randall and a few others. The only perfect knives I owned then were a matched pair of Herron knives, one trailing point and one drop point with full tapered tangs and cocobolo, and a Warenski drop point hunter with 4" blade of 440 steel, stag slabs, tapered tang etc. The only knives I used back then were the Randall and a Cooper Crowe model. I write this because very, very few of the knives were, in my mind, perfect. But I enjoyed every one of them.
 
Coop and Bruce,

Sorry for not being clear.

I mean on a nice hand-rubbed or damascus blade, a wide (I know this is subjective) line along the edge where the knife has been belt sharpened. Think of a 1/8" silver stripe along the edge of an otherwise beautiful damascus bowie. Or, put another way, look at pictures of all the high-end forged blades you really like and try to find a visible secondary bevel (sharpening line). You will have a hard time because almost all of the really top makers take their knives to sharp as part of the hand finishing process, then only use a stone to put on the final touches, which should be invisible unless the knife is with you and under careful inspection.

Bright Red,

I see what you're saying, but with that attitude I could also say that the knife is going to get scratched up the first time I use it, so why not accept it new from the maker with a bunch of scratches?

John
 
Hi John,

OK, now I fully understand (I was thinking a second grind or a swedge was what you meant. Silly me.)

That said, I have encountered this and don't find it that unnappealing, and am surprised that you would find it taboo. If said knife was truly going to be a user (let's be hypothetical) then repeated sharpenings would dictate a pronounced area doing this--your secondary bevel. Why not start with an area that is even and ready to go right from the maker?

I understand the aesthetic, though. And I see your warning as the prevalent method. Still, it may be a matter of choice and even preference for some, right? Hmmm.... (Disclaimer: I do not do a heck of a lot of resharpening to know.)

Coop
 
Depending on the intended use of the knife, I'd say the secondary bevel is perfectly acceptable unless you want a convex edge, in which case you would most likely have an even more pronounced visible edge the moment you needed to strop or resharpen. For instance, i wouldnt want an edge so thin on a flat grind that the cutting bevel was invisible on a big 15" knife made for chopping. Proper blade geometry for intended use shouldnt be sacrificed just for looks, IMHO. I think aesthetics are great, but we are talking about tools. If you just want something pretty, you may as well buy unhardened, unsharpened damascus wallhangers. I think that regardless of the amount of embellishment, a high end knife should always be a tool first and a beautiful tool second. Im sure others would disagree.
 
Got it..I have to agree with you on that also...I strive to never have this edge line show.It isnt hard to do when you go to that step.Yes the knife is completely sharp for the final rub and then the edge is stropped on leather for the final sharpen....No sacraficing of anything except that shinny line on the bottom of a nice hand rub.

Bruce
 
I don't think that secondary edge showing has to do as much with how thin the blade is ground so much as the fact that most of the ABS guys use a convex edge regardless of whether the flats of their blades are flat ground or appleseed ground. And it doesn't matter how thinly ground the blade is in its primary bevel. Look through the recent postings of ABS hunters and bowies and you won't see the secondary bevel, yet the hunters are definitely ground thinner than the bowies. It's because of the convex edge.

It's the stock removal hollow ground knives that usually show the secondary bevel. Look at the finest examples, even from Loveless, Johnson, Lovett, etc., and you'll easily see the secondary bevel. It's not that the blade wasn't ground thin enough on those hunters, it's because those edges aren't convexed nor are they scandi grinds.

To collect knives that don't show that secondary bevel, you'd have to stick to knives with convex edges or knives that are scandi grinds.
 
It can be done on a hollow ground blade...just has to have the edge bevel set before final finish...the shiny edge is just a accepted part of all knives so most people dont even look at it or think about it.If you get a chance to do a cutting test between a knife that doesnt show this edge and one that it is real pronounced on you will find a difference in how they cut,and sharpen.

This is just my preference and something I strive for on my knives,not for everyone though,plus if the knife is a user it will eventually get shiny on the edge as you sharpen away the hand rub.
Bruce
 
It is true, however, that a 22 degree sharpening will have different width viewable sharpening lines depending on the thickness of the grind. I do agree that 99% of custom knives that are handrubbed are convex by nature in the finishing process. If we are talking damascus, a convex edge will quickly become even uglier than a non-covex if it is sharpened correctly since more of the blade surface will be brought down than just the thin edge bevel. On the other hand, knives with edge bevels will diminish in cutting ability the more times they are resharpened.

My guess is none of this applies since very few collector-level damascus pieces are actually used enough to make a difference. If someone is concerned enough about a visible sliver of edge bevel that its a deal-breaker, i doubt they will ever use their knife for cutting anything.
 
I just like the looks without the line when I am finishing a knife and selling it.I feel it is a customers decision of using or none user for the knife and as long as I have done the best I can when they recieve it the rest is up to them...If that made sense:D ...I also agree that after a few heavy sharpenings that the convex edge may need to be touched up on a slack belt to get that keen edge it had at first,I do this as a free service to anyone that owns and uses one of my knives,That is as long as I am on this earth and capable of working in the shop.

If a person is going to use a Damascus blade then they shouldnt be worried about the line anyway as they will be scaring up the finish...

Bruce
 
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