Design advices for beginners

Matthew Gregory said:
I've got a more unusual bit of advice for someone starting out, as like many I fell into this same trap and took too long to get out: does 'better' really mean you can bend it, or smash up bricks with it? Many promote a knife that is meant to do things that a knife simply shouldn't do. I was thinking about this yesterday while at the gun range. Looking at the 26" long stainless barrel of the rifle, I thought: how many people would consider sticking the end of a gun into the side of a cliff face to 'break their fall', or shoot prairie dogs with it, then use it to pry open thief car door due to some completely absurd scenario they created in order to justify the circumstance? Why are knifemakers the only ones that need to promote their tools as things they were never meant to be, and not gunsmiths, too?
Ask yourself if you're seeking to make a better knife, or what a better knife means to you! Don't take what's written to heart without questioning the intellect behind the statement!!!!
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That is how I felt too...

I started a thread over in knife reviews and testing recently asking what people wanted to see in a knife. Everyone so far wants real life scenarios, no cinder blocks or gratuitous footage. :) :) :)



I think just because a topic gets brought up a lot does not make it important... in this case controversy brings attention. You can literally spout nonsense and get more attention than the best, it is just human nature.

I lived in the Caribbean for a few years with literally no television or American influence. When I came back I was literally in shock with how our entire culture is media based and how literally everything is influenced by tv and computers. Put it out there and people will follow!

On the other hand, we are knife people... we might not be buying all the hype. That doesn't mean it isn't the biggest thing going!
 
More advice: don't spend too much time on Bladeforums. It's habit forming.

Rick, +1 on no mirror polishes. I HATE buffing blades.
 
I have to say Rick and Salem, You two crack me up all the time. And give extremely sound advice as well.
I agree with you both most of the time. Great thread, and advice by all.

Here's a few suggestions that I can add, and that can be taken with a grain of salt. First, graph paper can be your friend. It allows you to see how the handle lines up with the blade.
Matching curves or contrasting curves/angles from the blade design and incorporating them into the handle has always worked well for me.
buy lots of erasers. as said earlier. moving a line or a curve even an 1/8th inch can make a big difference in the overall look and feel of the design.

-Dan
 
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Back on the topic of design,
The number one thing that jumps out on many new makers knives is a handle that looks like a block of wood with rounded edges. (The "sharpened bar of steel" looking blade is another problem, but the handle is the worst offender.)

The handle should have as many curves as a good looking woman has. Try and avoid having any completely straight or flat surfaces. The sides should be rounded into the top and bottom, and the overall cross section should normally be ovoid or elliptical. A bit of palm swell makes the handle look and feel better.
Knives that are straight as a ruler along the blade and spine look too rigid.
Add a tad of downward drop to the blade, tilt the guard forward a few degrees, and curve the handle down a bit toward the butt...... and it seems to be cutting the air.

As always, doing this on paper before doing it in metal and wood is the best method.




Now, for those who wish to try an experiment - this can be fun and informative:

Place your hand on a woman's breast. It is probably best to ask permission first, but assure the woman that this is purely in the interest of science.
Now, Place your hand on a man's breast....it is really important to get permission first, here.

Notice the difference in feel to the hand. The straighter and more angular shape of a man,s chest feels different to the hand...and looks different to the eye.
Before anyone says, "He is full of cocapoo", I have researched this extensively ( OK, I have repeated half of this experiment extensively), and the results are overwhelmingly in favor of the womans curves.
If your results are different, well maybe knife making isn't going to be your thing.


Some of this also applies to the "Sharpened Bar of Steel" looking first blades.
In most cases, adding angles and curves makes a blade look better.
It should evenly taper from ricasso to tip. The blade edge should smoothly rise to the point, and if the spine drops, it should be smooth. The bevels should be a continuous decrease toward the edge.
On the more advanced grinding end, when you see a rounded plunge line compared to a straight plunge, there is usually no comparison.
 
Will, My wife just came in and asked what I was typing on this morning. After telling her, I just checked my results....yep, I'm still going with my original hypothesis.

For those who may not have enough lab time and expertise for this level of experiment, the following is a valid alternate.

All kidding aside, I am serious about the visual results of these experiments.

Look at the shape of a woman's back from the side view. A normally proportioned and physically fit woman is the best subject for this observation.

(While bikinis or less will give the best details, first time experimenters can just use casual examination of women wearing tee-shirts and jeans/shorts. Now days they are more than tight enough to display the curves under them.)

Notice the way it curves slightly out from the neck then in to the small of the back, and then out again to the buttocks. This gives a smooth , soft, and delicate look. An observation on a man of similar size will look more "hard".
 
There's a lot of studies on physical attractions, lot of math in proportions and curves. Can't remember all the numbers, a woman's waist is supposed to be 33% smaller than her hips, symmetry is important.... Car designers incorporate a woman's proportions and curves into muscle cars... look at how the character lines in a Vette or Camaro remind you of a woman's outline.

A knife is like a lady, feels just right in your hand :)

My wife will kill me if she reads this :)
 
I have a notebook as well just like Will. My wife bought me a leather cover for it, so its all pretty. Its an engineering notebook. I had used those during my realworld career, and really liked them. The paper is heavy, graph paper, and numbered. It has every knife I've ever drawn in it. I layout the bar of steel I want to use on the graphpaper and then mark the length, just like I'm using a blank. Then I make the knife to function, laying out blade length and handle length first, then putting in a curve along the spine.

Also like Will, when I invite a newb to my shop, I ask them to bring drawings. If a guy doesn't have the bug badly enough to be drawing knives, then he's not ready to approach a grinder IMO.

Handles got mentioned. If your handle is a POS, then your knife isn't usable. I know how exciting it is to finish that first knife, but its not done. The day after, without thinking, chuck it in a vise and hit it with a file. Its hard to do the first stroke of the file, but force yourself. Then, once you have no choice in the matter anyway, go ahead and give it a re-shaping, and sanding. Make the handle sexy. Make it index the knife in your hand, so you always know where the edge is relative to your hand.

I find that on fullsize knives (working knives, bushcrafters, hunters, skinners and up) a 4.5" handle is minimum for it to feel right.
 
All right, I know I (a newbie) shouldn't really chime in, but I feel I must, just because we detoured into the subject of women and handles. Textures.

There are two kinds of textures, visual and physical. I'm more interested in the visual textures. Often I see people using handle materials (usually micarta) that give the impression of layers of burlap. To my eye, those materials cheapen the look of the knife. So you spend your time carving the perfect lady-shaped knife... and you clothe her in burlap? She deserves a more appealing and graceful material, one that you would take pleasure running your hand over.

Yes, I'm still talking about the visual pattern here. Even if you sand that micarta to a ultra fine finish, it still LOOKS coarse and unpleasant... to me, anyway. If you think I'm full of it, ask your wife if she would wear a shirt that looked like the micarta you use for handles. If she says yes, ask to stroke her breast through such a shirt and see how BOTH of you react. I doubt it will be a passionate moment. ;)

Don't get me wrong, visual textures have their place, just as plaids and argyles have their place in the wardrobe. I would not wear a whole outfit composed of plaid or argyle, though.
 
I've been at it for a couple of years now, and the think what has probably helped me the most is the habit of finishing every knife - no matter how badly I've screwed it up. I've found that every blade still has a lot to teach me and occasionally I'm pleasantly surprized by the end result. Another thing that has helped is two years of grinding on my high speed sear's 2" X 42". Yesterday I did my first blade on the kmg clone I finally got built and it was like grinding in slow motion! To quote another forum member, "who knew hollow grinding could be so much fun?"

Dick
 
I have an A4 book and have been drawing 2 or 3 knives every day for the last few weeks. I've never drawn anything before, NOT an artist at all, but this is a new passion and I'm always thinking of blade and handle shapes when I see a curve anywhere in the world around me. I've been amazed how such a tiny difference in a line has a huge affect on how a knife looks, and presumably, feels. Can't wait to get grinding.

Another great thread, thanks guys, I wouldn't even be considering making knives without you cats sharing such great advice :)

Lots to reread and think about here.
 
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tryppyr said:
Often I see people using handle materials (usually micarta) that give the impression of layers of burlap. To my eye, those materials cheapen the look of the knife.
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I think that's a pretty poor generalization and offensive to a number of very talented makers. Granted, it's just your eye, but it's a pretty bold thing to say.
 
Lots of great tips. It is important for the new maker (and the veterans) to keep in mind that fit, form and function are all relative to the the individual. Some folks think the coffin handle is the most comfortable around. The straight spined Puukko and Leuku are an indispensable tool for many. Swept blades, square handles, oversized guards, no guards... I love the fact that there are so many variables to play with. Don't let anybody tell you how a knife should be made.

As the saying goes... "There is more than one knife to skin a cat." (well, something like that, anyway.)

Rick
 
AcridSaint said:
I think that's a pretty poor generalization and offensive to a number of very talented makers. Granted, it's just your eye, but it's a pretty bold thing to say.
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I apologize to any makers my comments may offend. They are strictly my opinions, certainly not statements of fact.
 
AcridSaint said:
I think that's a pretty poor generalization and offensive to a number of very talented makers. Granted, it's just your eye, but it's a pretty bold thing to say.
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I don't see it that way. It's no more offensive than me saying that mirror finished blades cheapen the look for me... I can't help but be reminded of chrome dipped bike parts. Some have mentioned handles resembling blocks of wood... others find the rustic look ugly. They are all just opinions. I think G10 looks like cheap plastic.... who cares what I think? Who cares what Greg thinks?
 
Lots of really good suggestions here. I have some 3X5 index cards in my pocket all the time that I can jot a quick note or design feature down on. Sometimes, I'll see something that inspires a design (or a new way of rearranging my shop) and it is always better to put it on paper. Throw it in a folder or something. You will be amazed 2-3 years later.

When I was testing for mastersmith, I cut out lots of knives from magazines that I liked and taped them to the door. And while I didn't directly copy any, they served as inspiration. Take a handle from this a guard from that, etc...

The saying that always sticks in my mind is that. "Form follows function." It tends to be a good one most of the time. We are in a strange place where the knives we make need to be 100% functional and many customers need them to also be 100% art. Fortunately, what has been discussed earlier: curves and womanly proportions, etc... are a large part of of the art/form and function of the knife.

And one area I find a lot of problems with, regarding designing a knife, or more specifically, a sword, is that many collectors/users really want something like what they have seen before. Try making a non-traditional Katana, for instance. Creativity here is severely frowned on with almost anyone that is buying a "samurai sword." But that is okay, if someone wants a samuari sword, then they want it to be like the ones in the museum or movies. If they use it for Iado practice, then it has to be the same. So, my point here is sometimes it is okay not to get too creative, but to turn your engergy inward to the ever-challenging problem of refinement. Take a proven design and improve upon it.
-M
 
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The Tactical Folding Knife: A Study of the Anatomy and Construction of the Liner-Locked Folder by Bob Terzuola

This is a great one for aspiring liner lock makers.
 
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I'm offended by Cap's taking offense at something as simple as someone else's inoffensive statement of taste.

...besides, I look awesome in burlap. :D


I have no eye for design. I struggle with the lines and contours with every knife I make... it's just an aspect of life I'll likely never 'have'. To try to compensate, I usually draw out my designs using any and every tool available, from graph paper to rulers and french curves. The french curves have helped immensely, as they're based on contours that are, by definition, pleasing.
 
bladsmth said:
Before anyone says, "He is full of cocapoo", I have researched this extensively ( OK, I have repeated half of this experiment extensively), and the results are overwhelmingly in favor of the womans curves.
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While I applaud your efforts, I think you will agree that more research is in order. Corroboration by independent experimenters is very important, and there is seldom such a thing as too much evidence. In the interest of good science, I will continue my own pursuit of this fascinating matter as soon as Angie gets home from work this evening. Happily, she too is very science-minded and quite willing to sacrifice some of her time for the furtherance of knowledge.

As for micarta/G10 handles and "chrome-looking" finishes, I don't care much for the looks of either one myself. I will point out though, that sometimes practical considerations outweigh the visual ones, and those are two great examples. Many folks love micarta and G10 for their durability and "grippy" feel, and just as many prefer a mirror polish because it resists corrosion better than a rougher surface.
 
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