Did you think we were all just blowing smoke? Banning the ownership of ivory

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Mark Knapp

Mark Knapp

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This was just sent out by David Warther



Hello all,
This just in- unbelievable! This law (if passed )will make POSSESSION of anything with ivory in it illegal. It will also preclude any travel thru the state of NY carrying any item with ivory. It’s not passed yet, the Senate has just taken it up, but I don’t expect them to drag their feet. Call now! Don’t be lulled into thinking this won’t effect you if you are not a resident. These things have a way of gaining speed, and the lobbyist use one state passing such a law to help convince other politicians that they should pass the same restrictions in their states.

This was unexpected, so let me be brief. The New York State Senate took up SB 4686 today. As written, this bill would ban POSSESSION, sale, offering for sale, import and transportation of any part of an elephant, lion, leopard, black or white rhino. This is inconsistent with and would supersede the New York Ivory Ban already in place!
I put together a quick link for New York Residents. If you live in New York, click Take Action
The above link will take NY residents to a page that will give their state senator's phone number and some quick talking points to make with their senator.
If you are not from New York, you can contact the state senator where you do business, travel, or have any other connection in New York. A full list of state senators can be found at http://www.nysenate.gov/senators.
If passed, this bill wipes out exemptions in the previous ivory ban and leaves musicians as exposed as everyone else. There is a narrow exemption for items possessed in New York prior to this act, but you need to get a certificate from the NY Secretary of State to qualify for this exemption. If you travel into New York with something that contains ivory, you're out of luck. Law enforcement is given sweeping new powers under this law, it is punishable by 2 years imprisonment, all items shall be seized, and upon conviction, destroyed.
Don't delay! Act now!
 
This is the same state that will arrest you for illegal firearms possession if you have one in your checked suitcase and your connecting flight is canceled and you have to collect your baggage to recheck it later even if you don't leave the airport, right?
 
does it say anything about fossilized animal parts?
 
Im ashamed to say I live in the cesspool called NY, you people in the free world have no idea how difficult it is living behind enemy lines, and makes NO mistakes, NY State IS the enemy of freedom loving people.
Take warning and do not visit or spend your money here, let the state wither away with its masses of illegals, criminals and the crooked pols who have the system rigged against the honest hard working taxpayer. Im too far into my career and have elderly parents or else I would be outta here faster than you can say beetlejuice
 
Elephant ivory........for now. We have seen other efforts to ban the trade in ANY ivory like substance, age of the piece and status of the species it came from notwithstanding.
 
Lorien said:
does it say anything about fossilized animal parts?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where the line will be. What we call "fossil walrus ivory and fossil mammoth ivory" is not truly fossilized. It is still ivory material, under this law, ancient ivory will not be affected, but the next step may be to outlaw all of it (or more of it) because the ban on the sale of ivory includes mammoth ivory.
 
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personally, and this is only my opinion which is not particularly well informed on this issue, I think it's a mistake for our little corner of industry to conflate recent ivory with ancient ivory. Perhaps the stance of; 'the custom cutlery industry stands against the procurement of parts of animals which are endangered, but recognizes the importance of utilizing ancient ivories to craftsmen and collectors alike'. Advocating for the education required to tell the difference between the vastly different types of material is something that could also be greatly helpful.

The writing is on the wall wrt 'fresh' ivory (illegally) harvested from living animals over the last few hundred years. I think it's important for the debate, at the outset, to clearly delineate 'ancient' ivories and their significance to human art and craft. I think that is likely the only thing that can be done with an effective result at this point.
 
(Cross posted)

I saw this post earlier...

Guess what popped up on facebook trending?


http://www.popsci.com/watch-us-government-smash-one-ton-ivory-times-square


This is a joke... right?

So we aren't supposed to have ivory, but the gov't believes they should be able to smash it all? Great idea.... NOT!


Lorien said:
personally, and this is only my opinion which is not particularly well informed on this issue, I think it's a mistake for our little corner of industry to conflate recent ivory with ancient ivory. Perhaps the stance of; 'the custom cutlery industry stands against the procurement of parts of animals which are endangered, but recognizes the importance of utilizing ancient ivories to craftsmen and collectors alike'. Advocating for the education required to tell the difference between the vastly different types of material is something that could also be greatly helpful.

The writing is on the wall wrt 'fresh' ivory (illegally) harvested from living animals over the last few hundred years. I think it's important for the debate, at the outset, to clearly delineate 'ancient' ivories and their significance to human art and craft. I think that is likely the only thing that can be done with an effective result at this point.
Click to expand...

The problem is, the gov't and other governing bodies is usually extremely ignorant to anything like that. What would constitute "ancient" or "old" Ivory vs "fresh harvested?" If it was harvested 200 years ago, what about that? Lots of gray area....


This is the second time I've heard about "Ancient Ivory" since I believe someone above mentioned about "fossilized Ivory."

Overall it sucks that it's "banned for possession." It doesn't even do any good, at all. People will still try to possess it.

What is the love for Ivory? The feel? The hardness? Just the "exotic" touch?

IT's sad people have to kill rhinos and elephants to harvest it, instead of going after dead ones (maybe too late to use the ivory, but that contradicts "ancient ivory.")???

Maybe it's time to create "synthetic" ivory and materials like it. If we can create things like Diamonds in a lab, we should be able to recreate other things as well. Maybe it is, and maybe it's not as "sought after" as "Real ivory."

Crazy stuff.....
 
Have t we already see attempts to ban ancient ivory, the logic being that if there is no market for any ivory, disreputable people will not be able to pass off new as old? We also have to consider the "setting a good example for the world" aspect.
 
LasagnaBurrito said:
The problem is, the gov't and other governing bodies is usually extremely ignorant to anything like that. What would constitute "ancient" or "old" Ivory vs "fresh harvested?" If it was harvested 200 years ago, what about that? Lots of gray area....
Click to expand...

this is exactly the point I was trying to make. The custom cutlery industry can work with other industries which utilize ancient, (I mistakenly used 'fossilized' earlier, and was corrected) ivories to work together and lobby for education regarding the differences, and help delineate the scope of what is ancient and what isn't.

As for instituting a possession ban, absolutely, for sure that will cut back on the desire of many people to own this material. I think, in general, people avoid putting themselves in punitive situations. I'm not saying the ban is a fair or good, but if the goal is to suppress demand, making this material illegal will help to achieve it. Smashing it to bits is an obvious publicity stunt meant to convey a message.

Perhaps there will be a viable option for stem cell ivory, if demand is high enough to warrant the r&d, or if governments develop it as a tactic to take the wind out of the sails of the poachers. But that's like sci fi, man!
 
Lorien said:
this is exactly the point I was trying to make. The custom cutlery industry can work with other industries which utilize ancient, (I mistakenly used 'fossilized' earlier, and was corrected) ivories to work together and lobby for education regarding the differences, and help delineate the scope of what is ancient and what isn't.

As for instituting a possession ban, absolutely, for sure that will cut back on the desire of many people to own this material. I think, in general, people avoid putting themselves in punitive situations. I'm not saying the ban is a fair or good, but if the goal is to suppress demand, making this material illegal will help to achieve it. Smashing it to bits is an obvious publicity stunt meant to convey a message.

Perhaps there will be a viable option for stem cell ivory, if demand is high enough to warrant the r&d, or if governments develop it as a tactic to take the wind out of the sails of the poachers. But that's like sci fi, man!
Click to expand...

That would be cool if it's possible, but sadly, again, governing bodies...

There was an issue where the USDA was trying to ban wooden boards used in cheese curing, and to not allow any cheese sold that had been made that way. It was either this year or last (more likely), that 30 MILLION pounds of cheese would have been banned just from imports.... This isn't including USA cheese. There was a HUGE uproar, and it didn't pass.

I think it will stop "some" people from "buying" it, but if someone has a knife, they aren't going to get rid of it, especially if a knife costs 100$+, as that's a ton of money to a lot of people. I understand why they want to ban it, but it's like other things that have been banned, and people still try to find a way to do it. The thing I see when things go "illegal" is that a lot of times they "are really bad," just like alcohol prohibition.


As for sci-fi, right now we are looking at a piece of glass, that is connected to a bunch of other things, that displays a message on some body called a "forum" that is located on a server somewhere on this planet, and we are able to talk and create images on this piece of glass in real time, and chat with people in real time, right by a device that we can hold in our hand, and walk around with.... I say... Sci-fi... Welcome to the Real World :).

Ivory seems like a big damn deal, so I think it's time we start developing ways to create it ourselves.




Again, what is so special about Ivory from Rhinos and Elephants, and other animals, that it is so sought after?
 
LasagnaBurrito said:
(Cross posted)

I saw this post earlier...

Guess what popped up on facebook trending?


http://www.popsci.com/watch-us-government-smash-one-ton-ivory-times-square


This is a joke... right?

So we aren't supposed to have ivory, but the gov't believes they should be able to smash it all? Great idea.... NOT!




The problem is, the gov't and other governing bodies is usually extremely ignorant to anything like that. What would constitute "ancient" or "old" Ivory vs "fresh harvested?" If it was harvested 200 years ago, what about that? Lots of gray area....


This is the second time I've heard about "Ancient Ivory" since I believe someone above mentioned about "fossilized Ivory."

Overall it sucks that it's "banned for possession." It doesn't even do any good, at all. People will still try to possess it.

What is the love for Ivory? The feel? The hardness? Just the "exotic" touch?

IT's sad people have to kill rhinos and elephants to harvest it, instead of going after dead ones (maybe too late to use the ivory, but that contradicts "ancient ivory.")???

Maybe it's time to create "synthetic" ivory and materials like it. If we can create things like Diamonds in a lab, we should be able to recreate other things as well. Maybe it is, and maybe it's not as "sought after" as "Real ivory."

Crazy stuff.....
Click to expand...

Yep. its real.
Did I mention NY is THE most Fd up state in the country

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/06/19/ivory-crush-times-square/
 
I have dealt with cities permitted animals etc in great detail

The problem is when a body like the one that will be handling it has to step out of their comfort zone to determine what is ancient vs elephant vs walrus etc it becomes smeared and they will not go out of their way to test

They will just Ban all Ivory

They will also Say that elephant will try and be passed off as ancient and again will not spend the money for testing

The anti hunters and people that are pushing this will ride it out and I do fear we are nearing the end on all Ivory

It's a shame we all know the only hope for Ivory is to not ban any Ivory

Anyone thinking different is deluded

For those of you that have a lot of Ivory in your collections I feel very bad

I also feel very bad for the elephants and the way these laws will impact them

By them becoming less valuable we endanger their future

Some will not understand this ....... They need to go to Africa
 
"Being on the horns of a dilemma" comes to mind.
If I could save one elephant's life by giving up all the ivory I own, I would do it in a second. A no brainer on my part.
USA cost for elephant ivory was 200 bucks per pound.
China cost for elephant ivory was 1000 bucks per pound.
Where do you start?

Gary
 
Lorien said:
here's another article worth reading. Short, but fairly balanced from what I can tell; http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/illegal-ivory-crush-times-square-today
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good article, balanced anyway. One ton of ivory is not very much, it could be as little as twenty 8 foot tusks, sounds anti-climactic to me. It would be a good idea to let the tusks be DNA tested, then we would know just how many of them were taken in areas where poaching is a problem as apposed to areas where there is no poaching at all. As we all know, poaching is only a problem in a small area in Africa. As we also know, all the ivory that the USF&W service collects goes into this pile of so called "poached ivory". In actuality, much of it wasn't poached at all. It was collected because it's origin was unknown, and thereby assumed to be poached.
 
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