Did you think we were all just blowing smoke? Banning the ownership of ivory

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Now here is the one that really makes one wonder. American hunters are allowed in certain African areas to still bring up to four "trophy" tusks per person per year into the USA. Safari Club members and others are licensed to kill elephants for fun.
How anyone could take pleasure in destroying creature such as an elephant needs to have their head examined.

Gary
 
Hi Gary, I say this with all the respect you are due. It is a problem if you (any of us) get your information from only one place. Get as much information as you can from as many places as you can so that you can make the best decisions you can. The WWF is obviously not un-biased. They are doing good work in some places, their hearts are in the right place but they are a business, they are making billions of dollars on the illicit ivory issue. Their administrators are making salaries higher than you and I will ever see (I'm guessing) If there is no controversy, their contributions plummet, they need these kinds of things to make their money. If you are truly interested in the truth and you want to be able to talk about this issue (from whatever side you are on) knowledgeably please read the studies in the link I posted.

Incidentally, when I said, "I'm guessing" I was only guessing on how much you might make. I know how much I make and I know how much the administrators of the animal protectionist groups make. If you like, I will post the financial reports that show they make incredible amounts of money while they ask hard working people to volunteer their time and money for these causes.

If you don't mind telling me, what do you do for a living. What ever it is, I am sure there are a small percentage of people in your business that are doing it illegally as there are in the ivory business. Would it be right if our government made your whole industry illegal just because there are a few of you doing it illegally? There are thousands of people who make a living or part of it dealing with ivory. Antique dealers musicians, musical instrument repair, collectable merchants, duck and turkey call makers, knife makers, auctioneers in all fields (the list goes on) that are being effected by bans like these. Not to mention the millions of people who's private possessions will be made illegal, totaling in billions of dollars in private assets. This is all just to send a message to other countries who aren't listening. One of the ETIS studies I cited showed that laws changed in the US have no effect on consumption in other countries. When we instituted the ban we live under today in 1989 it had no effect on declining numbers in Africa, only on the amount of ivory coming to the US. Another ETIS study showed the amount of illicit ivory coming into the US is statistically insignificant.

If we really want to do something meaningful to help control poaching in Africa we should be pressuring our government to place sanctions on counties involved in the illicit ivory trade, provide aid to countries with poaching problems in the way of technology, very much needed funding and training for wildlife guards. The overwhelming percentage of the problem exists in Africa and China. It has not been demonstrated that changing laws here will save even one elephant. We could do a whole more if we could work together to solve the problem where it exists, instead of squabbling amongst ourselves over ivory from elephants that died over thirty years ago.
 
Now here is the one that really makes one wonder. American hunters are allowed in certain African areas to still bring up to four "trophy" tusks per person per year into the USA. Safari Club members and others are licensed to kill elephants for fun.
How anyone could take pleasure in destroying creature such as an elephant needs to have their head examined.

Gary

Here is where you show how much you really don't understand the problem.

Those countries that have huntable populations of elephants have them because they have sport hunting. Sport hunting finances the conservation of wildlife and protection from poachers just like it does in the US.

Those bulls that are killed through sport-hunting are killed after they have become nonproductive. It's very selective.

The managers of those hunting concessions protect elephant populations very enthusiastically. There is virtually no poaching where there is sport hunting. There is no sport hunting where there is poaching.

The Safari Club has directly provided more funding to fight poaching than any other organization by a long shot, in terms of actually putting elephant guards between elephants and poachers.

These are the facts, I have studied this issue in depth for many years, if you want me to show you the figures, I will. I have it all somewhere, it might just take me a little while to did it all up.
 
Why don't you go join the women on "the view" Gary. How could anyone hunt and kill a squirrel, rabbit, for fun? How can anybody slice the throat of a chicken or pig in a slaughterhouse?
The cost to harvest an elephant in Africa (50k???) probably does more to secure the future of the elephants than we will ever know.
Long story short sell your car and buy a bicycle, I find it despicable for you to drive around burning up non renewable natural resources " for fun".
Yeah I like elephants too but you make me sick sir
 
Why don't you go join the women on "the view" Gary. How could anyone hunt and kill a squirrel, rabbit, for fun? How can anybody slice the throat of a chicken or pig in a slaughterhouse?
The cost to harvest an elephant in Africa (50k???) probably does more to secure the future of the elephants than we will ever know.
Long story short sell your car and buy a bicycle, I find it despicable for you to drive around burning up non renewable natural resources " for fun".
Yeah I like elephants too but you make me sick sir

Please be nice to Gary, he's probably a good dude. We just need to be able to discuss this without attacking people personally. They will shut us down if this turns into a brawl. Meaningful discussion is the only way to solve anything. I'm sure you can make your point nicely.
 
Thanks again Mark. As a sport and meat hunter, conservation of animals is very important to me. I have spent time and money to protect these animals. By the way, my elephant tusks were inherited from my father. I would like to pass them on in the family. Does confiscation make any sense in this case.
Mark, perhaps it is time to mention our knife donation and the amount of money raised!
Gary House.
 
Now here is the one that really makes one wonder. American hunters are allowed in certain African areas to still bring up to four "trophy" tusks per person per year into the USA. Safari Club members and others are licensed to kill elephants for fun.
How anyone could take pleasure in destroying creature such as an elephant needs to have their head examined.

Gary

Those same hunters you demonize are the salvation of elephants in modern Africa

You need to do some research
 
No Joe, no hunter is the salvation of anything. Didn't you get the memo? They are EVIL NAZI MURDERERS AND OPPRESSORS even when culling hunts that take like 10% of the herd in places like the Everglades end up saving perhaps 40-50% of the herd from possibly starving to death. Now if the GOVERNMENT does the culling, then it is probably okay. :rolleyes:
Those same hunters you demonize are the salvation of elephants in modern Africa

You need to do some research
 
Funny Joe

To bad that the general population is not educated in these matters and does not understand that every sportsman (HUNTER) that buys a license or tag anywhere is doing more than anyone else to save and preserve wildlife etc
 
Funny Joe

To bad that the general population is not educated in these matters and does not understand that every sportsman (HUNTER) that buys a license or tag anywhere is doing more than anyone else to save and preserve wildlife etc

sounds like a job the NRA should be doing, (used to do).
 
Same reason I would wake up one morning and blow away a grizzly bear. The money spent for tag license and guide does more to protect other grizzly bears than you will ever do. Believe me, firsthand experiance. A guide and outfitter anywhere in the world will do more to protect the species he hunts than you will ever do Gary Florida.
Gary House
 
Hunters are part of the reason why we are now able to mantain a reintroduced elk herd on former strip mined and replanted mountain land in Eastern Kentucky and succeed beyond the wildest expectation of the guys who came up with the idea. From 1550 Rocky Mountain Elk released between 1997 and 2003, the heard has stabilized at around 10,000 in 2010 and has been maintained at that level since then. The State of Kentucky issued around 1,100 elk hunting permits by lottery last year in total. Interesting and encouraging to see elk back in my ancestral homeland after perhaps more than 150 years of absence.
 
http://www.africanskyhunting.co.za/trophies/elephant-hu numerous hunting camps still offer trophy hunts.

I just don't understand why you would wake up one morning and decide to blow away an elephant. Just not me I guess.

Gary

It's OK if you don't understand, but if you don't understand about any given subject you should try to learn about it in order to talk knowledgeably about it. It's even worse when those that don't understand try to force their beliefs on other people.

You haven't answered any of my questions, What do you do for a living? Do you think it is right for a government to outlaw an industry because a very small minority of the people in that industry may be doing it illegally? Or is it better if they catch those individuals and punish just them.

This is a discussion forum, it's fine if people want to tout their beliefs but if you say something, a reasonable man will expect you to be able to defend what you say. If you can't defend what you say, maybe it's best left unsaid until you can defend it. If we all sit around and spout our beliefs without being able to defend them, none of us learn anything, we don't have a better understanding of the problems, and they go unsolved.

I don't particularly understand why recruits in boot camp get treated so poorly when they first join the military but since I don't know anything about it I don't pass judgement on it. I try not to talk about things I know nothing about.

As for hunting elephants, and any other animal. Civilized man learned a long time ago that hunters can kill game far more humanely than nature can. When a human kills an animal, the goal is to kill it quickly so that the animal does not suffer. Humaneness is a human concept, that's why "human" is in the word. Nature knows nothing of humaneness. When a population of animals exceeds the carrying capacity of it habitat nature takes care of the problem through starvation and disease. I have seen how nature does it and I can tell you it's not pretty, it's not humane. Every animal that is born must die, would you rather it die humanely or suffer a long time starving to death or by disease?

Wildlife goes through boom and bust cycles if wildlife populations aren't kept at about 80 percent of the carrying capacity of it's habitat through game management. If left unchecked wild life population will crash to about twenty percent. Through modern wildlife conservation (game management) man has learned that if we take between 10 and 20 percent of any given population annually the population doesn't have to be limited by disease and starvation, and go though these boom and bust cycles. There are more animals for everyone, they are healthier. That is why modern man hunts. Those are the elephants that are being taken though sport hunting in Africa today. The people that hunt (game in general) are doing you a service, and they are paying the much needed funds for wildlife management to do it. They are not asking you for anything to do that service for you, they just want to be left alone.

None of this has anything to do with the elephants that are being poached, those are completely different elephant populations. Those populations (where they are poached) are being depleted because there is no one there that cares enough about them to protect them like there are where healthy populations are being managed.
 
I think the NRA has it's hands full with firearms safety and defending the 2nd amendment.

I think that sportsman's groups like Ducks unlimited, Safari Club, FNAWS, Pheasants Forever, Roughed Grouse Soc, Wild Turkey Foundation and others have done a good job spreading the word, as well as the various state fish and game agencies.

The problem is, we are becoming a more urbanized society and those groups can't reach the urban masses who's voting numbers are overwhelming what voice we have in rural areas.

The cities are so far removed from rural activities that getting someone from the city to understand wildlife management is almost impossible. Many people in cities believe that no animal should die at the hand of man, while those of us that have been around it understand that some animals must die at the hand of man in order for there to be more of them, for all of us to enjoy, and that they will all be healthier.
Some must die humanely at the hand of man so that most of them don't die inhumanely by nature. No animal dies of old age in nature, they all die by either starvation, disease or predation. Man is one of the predators, and he's the only one that has ever given humaneness a thought.
 
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I think the NRA has it's hands full with firearms safety and defending the 2nd amendment.

I think that sportsman's groups like Ducks unlimited, Safari Club, FNAWS, Pheasants Forever, Roughed Grouse Soc, Wild Turkey Foundation and others have done a good job spreading the word, as well as the various state fish and game agencies.

The problem is, we are becoming a more urbanized society and those groups can't reach the urban masses who's voting numbers are overwhelming what voice we have in rural areas.

The cities are so far removed from rural activities that getting someone from the city to understand wildlife management is almost impossible. Many people in cities believe that no animal should die at the hand of man, while those of us that have been around it understand that some animals must die at the hand of man in order for there to be more of them, for all of us to enjoy, and that they will all be healthier.
Some must die humanely at the hand of man so that most of them don't die inhumanely by nature. No animal dies of old age in nature, they all die by either starvation, disease or predation. Man is one of the predators, and he's the only one that has ever given humaneness a thought.

True words Mark
 
What gives some of our "hunt clubs" the right to formulate some of these statements? I am sorry but to me it is a self serving argument with one goal in mind. Pay me to shoot your trophy to hang on your wall and we will make sure the World will think we are doing the wildlife and locals a huge favor. Here is some material I read all the time.
"Without trophy hunting wild animals, in most parts of Africa (the wild animals) would have little value for the locals and would be killed indiscriminately as they compete with their livestock as well as human beings for ag land and urban development"

This type of self serving attitude is shocking to me. Is this the message we want to teach in the long run?

Gary
 
Same thing that give the Sierra club and others the "right" to do the same things. The message that we want to "teach in the long run" is the truth.
What gives some of our "hunt clubs" the right to formulate some of these statements? I am sorry but to me it is a self serving argument with one goal in mind. Pay me to shoot your trophy to hang on your wall and we will make sure the World will think we are doing the wildlife and locals a huge favor. Here is some material I read all the time.
"Without trophy hunting wild animals, in most parts of Africa (the wild animals) would have little value for the locals and would be killed indiscriminately as they compete with their livestock as well as human beings for ag land and urban development"

This type of self serving attitude is shocking to me. Is this the message we want to teach in the long run?

Gary
 
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