Did you think we were all just blowing smoke? Banning the ownership of ivory

Mark Knapp

Mark Knapp

Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
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This was just sent out by David Warther



Hello all,
This just in- unbelievable! This law (if passed )will make POSSESSION of anything with ivory in it illegal. It will also preclude any travel thru the state of NY carrying any item with ivory. It’s not passed yet, the Senate has just taken it up, but I don’t expect them to drag their feet. Call now! Don’t be lulled into thinking this won’t effect you if you are not a resident. These things have a way of gaining speed, and the lobbyist use one state passing such a law to help convince other politicians that they should pass the same restrictions in their states.

This was unexpected, so let me be brief. The New York State Senate took up SB 4686 today. As written, this bill would ban POSSESSION, sale, offering for sale, import and transportation of any part of an elephant, lion, leopard, black or white rhino. This is inconsistent with and would supersede the New York Ivory Ban already in place!
I put together a quick link for New York Residents. If you live in New York, click Take Action
The above link will take NY residents to a page that will give their state senator's phone number and some quick talking points to make with their senator.
If you are not from New York, you can contact the state senator where you do business, travel, or have any other connection in New York. A full list of state senators can be found at http://www.nysenate.gov/senators.
If passed, this bill wipes out exemptions in the previous ivory ban and leaves musicians as exposed as everyone else. There is a narrow exemption for items possessed in New York prior to this act, but you need to get a certificate from the NY Secretary of State to qualify for this exemption. If you travel into New York with something that contains ivory, you're out of luck. Law enforcement is given sweeping new powers under this law, it is punishable by 2 years imprisonment, all items shall be seized, and upon conviction, destroyed.
Don't delay! Act now!
 
Dose this ban cover only what is listed above, elephant, lion, leopard and black and white rhino? Or does it directly affect other ivory from other sources?

Fred
 
Only a matter of time, methinks.
Fred.Rowe said:
Dose this ban cover only what is listed above, elephant, lion, leopard and black and white rhino? Or does it directly affect other ivory from other sources?

Fred
Click to expand...
 
Mark, that is so scary. Even if Mammoth isn't listed, what do you bet folks with Mammoth ivory would get caught up in dragnet. Of course, you can take it to court and be found innocent, but look how much money, time, and stress you've expended!

And I though Calif was the land of nuts! {g}
 
typical western political answer to a problem they don't understand... over legislate everything to the point where common people become criminals for doing absolutely nothing more wrong than carrying their grandfathers keepsake folder or owning a piano with pre-ban ivory keys... LOCK HIM UP! ridiculous how pathetic people are in Canada and the US. we over do, everything from bike helmets to gun control, all because people overreact and don't understand the facts that lead to the problem at hand.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Dose this ban cover only what is listed above, elephant, lion, leopard and black and white rhino? Or does it directly affect other ivory from other sources?

Fred
Click to expand...

The scary thing is, although this law only outlaws the possession of elephant ivory in NY, it will lead to other kinds of ivory and more states given the path that the ban on the sale of ivory has taken.
 
I have doubts that this bill will pass...but the though that it was even submitted shows a cause for great alarm. Read on for my thoughts:



I completely agree that all illegal material should be confiscated, crushed, and destroyed. However, the publicity stunt in Times Square draws great attention to the situation...but directs it away from the actual problem or a solution.
I would bet big money that the average viewer of that event will not notice that there isn't one custom knife being destroyed...just Asian religious icons and Chinese/Indian/African carvings. The vast amount of ivory goes into this market, but our small knifemaking niche will suffer because people who want their ivory icons will pay ridiculous prices...and don't care about the source. Just like napalm had no way to differentiate between military enemies and innocent civilians, totalitarian laws on ivory will sweep the good away with the bad. The ( wrongful) defense for both is that the bulk of what is destroyed will be the bad guys/stuff.

The main cause that has led to the huge rise in illegal ivory is the nouveau riche Asian ( mainly China and India) market for anything carved in ivory. They have created a high demand for the products, and care nothing about any regulation that hinders their wants. Crushing ivory in Times Square or crying athletes saying, "Stop the buying" will not alter their desire for ivory carvings, which they see as a sign of wealth.

40 yeas ago, ivory was a minor thought to most folks in the US and Europe, and even China. It was readily found at affordable prices by craftsmen who had legitimate uses for it. Custom knifemakers used it to showcase their skills and workmanship. Sadly, our craftsmanship is being swept away by politicians and other sheeple who don't really understand the problem or the solution.

Banning ivory ownership in the USA will not stop poaching and illegal trade in China/India/Africa any more than banning alcohol stopped moonshining and drinking in the 1920's, or alcohol smuggling from other countries. With bribery and corruption, an illegal trade can always find illegal buyers. Why was prohibition a huge failure...because the public wasn't behind it.

Public education about ivory is the first step. The public needs to know that knifemakers aren't fostering the illegal trade or profiting from it. They also need to know the actual people who are involved.

As long as government officials are on the take, enacting strong laws against the illegal trade will not stop it. No one smuggles tons of ivory in and out of countries without someone official rich off it. In many third world countries, these officials don't even get jail time when caught. A sentence of 20 years mandatory and $100,000 fine would make a few more folks stop and think.

Getting the average resident of countries that consume the ivory involved in stopping the illegal trade would be a second attack on poaching and smuggling. Maybe the very wealthy don't care, but the average citizen probably does. For every smuggler and corrupt official, there must be hundreds of people who know, but turn a blind eye, saying, "What can I do?"
I bet if the UN, US and other anti-ivory poaching countries enacted strict anti-smuggling laws and posted a $100,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of ivory smuggles, it would diminish quickly.
I can also bet that the first two countries that won't agree to enact any such policy would be China and India.

This won't go away by burying our heads in the sand. Call, write, email your legislature and defend your trade as a legitimate use of ivory, and express your views that penalizing and criminalizing legal use isn't the way to stop the illegal users.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have doubts that this bill will pass...but the though that it was even submitted shows a cause for great alarm. Read on for my thoughts:



I completely agree that all illegal material should be confiscated, crushed, and destroyed. However, the publicity stunt in Times Square draws great attention to the situation...but directs it away from the actual problem or a solution.
I would bet big money that the average viewer of that event will not notice that there isn't one custom knife being destroyed...just Asian religious icons and Chinese/Indian/African carvings. The vast amount of ivory goes into this market, but our small knifemaking niche will suffer because people who want their ivory icons will pay ridiculous prices...and don't care about the source. Just like napalm had no way to differentiate between military enemies and innocent civilians, totalitarian laws on ivory will sweep the good away with the bad. The ( wrongful) defense for both is that the bulk of what is destroyed will be the bad guys/stuff.

The main cause that has led to the huge rise in illegal ivory is the nouveau riche Asian ( mainly China and India) market for anything carved in ivory. They have created a high demand for the products, and care nothing about any regulation that hinders their wants. Crushing ivory in Times Square or crying athletes saying, "Stop the buying" will not alter their desire for ivory carvings, which they see as a sign of wealth.

40 yeas ago, ivory was a minor thought to most folks in the US and Europe, and even China. It was readily found at affordable prices by craftsmen who had legitimate uses for it. Custom knifemakers used it to showcase their skills and workmanship. Sadly, our craftsmanship is being swept away by politicians and other sheeple who don't really understand the problem or the solution.

Banning ivory ownership in the USA will not stop poaching and illegal trade in China/India/Africa any more than banning alcohol stopped moonshining and drinking in the 1920's, or alcohol smuggling from other countries. With bribery and corruption, an illegal trade can always find illegal buyers. Why was prohibition a huge failure...because the public wasn't behind it.

Public education about ivory is the first step. The public needs to know that knifemakers aren't fostering the illegal trade or profiting from it. They also need to know the actual people who are involved.

As long as government officials are on the take, enacting strong laws against the illegal trade will not stop it. No one smuggles tons of ivory in and out of countries without someone official rich off it. In many third world countries, these officials don't even get jail time when caught. A sentence of 20 years mandatory and $100,000 fine would make a few more folks stop and think.

Getting the average resident of countries that consume the ivory involved in stopping the illegal trade would be a second attack on poaching and smuggling. Maybe the very wealthy don't care, but the average citizen probably does. For every smuggler and corrupt official, there must be hundreds of people who know, but turn a blind eye, saying, "What can I do?"
I bet if the UN, US and other anti-ivory poaching countries enacted strict anti-smuggling laws and posted a $100,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of ivory smuggles, it would diminish quickly.
I can also bet that the first two countries that won't agree to enact any such policy would be China and India.

This won't go away by burying our heads in the sand. Call, write, email your legislature and defend your trade as a legitimate use of ivory, and express your views that penalizing and criminalizing legal use isn't the way to stop the illegal users.
Click to expand...

Very well said, Stacy
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have doubts that this bill will pass...but the though that it was even submitted shows a cause for great alarm. Read on for my thoughts:



I completely agree that all illegal material should be confiscated, crushed, and destroyed. However, the publicity stunt in Times Square draws great attention to the situation...but directs it away from the actual problem or a solution.
I would bet big money that the average viewer of that event will not notice that there isn't one custom knife being destroyed...just Asian religious icons and Chinese/Indian/African carvings. The vast amount of ivory goes into this market, but our small knifemaking niche will suffer because people who want their ivory icons will pay ridiculous prices...and don't care about the source. Just like napalm had no way to differentiate between military enemies and innocent civilians, totalitarian laws on ivory will sweep the good away with the bad. The ( wrongful) defense for both is that the bulk of what is destroyed will be the bad guys/stuff.

The main cause that has led to the huge rise in illegal ivory is the nouveau riche Asian ( mainly China and India) market for anything carved in ivory. They have created a high demand for the products, and care nothing about any regulation that hinders their wants. Crushing ivory in Times Square or crying athletes saying, "Stop the buying" will not alter their desire for ivory carvings, which they see as a sign of wealth.

40 yeas ago, ivory was a minor thought to most folks in the US and Europe, and even China. It was readily found at affordable prices by craftsmen who had legitimate uses for it. Custom knifemakers used it to showcase their skills and workmanship. Sadly, our craftsmanship is being swept away by politicians and other sheeple who don't really understand the problem or the solution.

Banning ivory ownership in the USA will not stop poaching and illegal trade in China/India/Africa any more than banning alcohol stopped moonshining and drinking in the 1920's, or alcohol smuggling from other countries. With bribery and corruption, an illegal trade can always find illegal buyers. Why was prohibition a huge failure...because the public wasn't behind it.

Public education about ivory is the first step. The public needs to know that knifemakers aren't fostering the illegal trade or profiting from it. They also need to know the actual people who are involved.

As long as government officials are on the take, enacting strong laws against the illegal trade will not stop it. No one smuggles tons of ivory in and out of countries without someone official rich off it. In many third world countries, these officials don't even get jail time when caught. A sentence of 20 years mandatory and $100,000 fine would make a few more folks stop and think.

Getting the average resident of countries that consume the ivory involved in stopping the illegal trade would be a second attack on poaching and smuggling. Maybe the very wealthy don't care, but the average citizen probably does. For every smuggler and corrupt official, there must be hundreds of people who know, but turn a blind eye, saying, "What can I do?"
I bet if the UN, US and other anti-ivory poaching countries enacted strict anti-smuggling laws and posted a $100,000 reward for the arrest and conviction of ivory smuggles, it would diminish quickly.
I can also bet that the first two countries that won't agree to enact any such policy would be China and India.

This won't go away by burying our heads in the sand. Call, write, email your legislature and defend your trade as a legitimate use of ivory, and express your views that penalizing and criminalizing legal use isn't the way to stop the illegal users.
Click to expand...

Very well said Stacy
 
Another problem is that the park rangers in most places in Africa are oft times outgunned by the poachers. Of course, no decent person would ever accept that a lot of the huge trophy fees that big game hunters pay for the scant few animals that they shoot is SUPPOSED to go for paying, training and arming those rangers.
 
I'm not seeing the "Take Action" link Mark. I was going to forward to a couple of my customers and friends in NY.


Thanks again for all the vigilance on this issue, it was good discussing it with you at Blade.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I have doubts that this bill will pass...but the though that it was even submitted shows a cause for great alarm. Read on for my thoughts:



I completely agree that all illegal material should be confiscated, crushed, and destroyed.
Click to expand...

Destroying irreplaceable objects is not only incredibly foolish, but a HUGE MISTAKE. IT does nothing but destroy something that we are trying to protect.


Once these animals are gone, and we cannot find anymore "ancient" ivory, we will be shit out of luck, because our gov destroyed billions of pounds of the stuff to "send a message."

It's like people who melt gold and fuck with it. Gold is an extremely important resource.


"sending a message" by destroying ivory isn't the way to go about it.


If they "wanted to send a message" they should take poachers to the middle of Time Square, and beat them to death in front of millions of people.... That sends a deeper message than "we are going to take your toys away, so play nice!"
 
javand said:
I'm not seeing the "Take Action" link Mark. I was going to forward to a couple of my customers and friends in NY.


Thanks again for all the vigilance on this issue, it was good discussing it with you at Blade.
Click to expand...

I copied this from an email that David Warther sent me. Sometimes the buttons don't copy well. Here's his email addy, warther(at)roadrunner(dot)com I am sure he will help you in any way he can.

It was very nice to meet you in person, I hope we get to do it again. Thanks Mark
 
LasagnaBurrito said:
Destroying irreplaceable objects is not only incredibly foolish, but a HUGE MISTAKE. IT does nothing but destroy something that we are trying to protect.


Once these animals are gone, and we cannot find anymore "ancient" ivory, we will be shit out of luck, because our gov destroyed billions of pounds of the stuff to "send a message."

It's like people who melt gold and **** with it. Gold is an extremely important resource.


"sending a message" by destroying ivory isn't the way to go about it.


If they "wanted to send a message" they should take poachers to the middle of Time Square, and beat them to death in front of millions of people.... That sends a deeper message than "we are going to take your toys away, so play nice!"
Click to expand...

Not sure what you meant with the gold thing, please be careful with language, kids read this.
 
I may be in the minority of knife makers here, but I am not opposed to a wholesale ban on trading of elephant ivory. I agree that a demand for pre-ban ivory may increase the demand for illegal ivory. The elephant populations in Africa are low enough that I would hate to think that I was a part of their eventual extinction.

Banning the possession of any kind of ivory is obviously asinine. Especially mammoth ivory for obvious reasons. Obviously the USA is not the source of the elephant poaching issue, but any way that they could help may make a difference.
 
S.Alexander said:
I may be in the minority of knife makers here, but I am not opposed to a wholesale ban on trading of elephant ivory. I agree that a demand for pre-ban ivory may increase the demand for illegal ivory. The elephant populations in Africa are low enough that I would hate to think that I was a part of their eventual extinction.

Banning the possession of any kind of ivory is obviously asinine. Especially mammoth ivory for obvious reasons. Obviously the USA is not the source of the elephant poaching issue, but any way that they could help may make a difference.
Click to expand...



So you're ok with banning the possession of items (antiques, artifacts, etc.) containing or made from elephant ivory? I'm guessing you simply mean that you're ok with banning the sale of elephant ivory. Which btw, is already the case federally here in the USA, with *very few* exceptions, for over 20 years.

I agree that we shouldn't be able to buy and sell new elephant ivory except for where it was legally obtained under those very strict guidelines and rare circumstances. However, this is already the law.


I won't use elephant ivory on knives, and have no desire to, because of my concern about the circumstances where even pre-ban ivory was harvested. *HOWEVER* if I could be certain that the ivory came from ethical harvesting practices (i.e. old elephant that died of natural causes, or where hunting was for food or necessity, etc.) I would use it, and consider it to be an honor to continue the legacy of the creature by turning a part of it into an object of art and use.



However, the core fallacy of these proposed laws is the idea that we're promoting and consuming poached ivory, which simply isn't the case.


On top of that, what possible good can come from criminalizing the possession or sale of items that were made with ivory long before such concerns? I can guarantee, that any of us with a family of any size, have elder members with heirlooms containing ivory components. Many of which are treasured, and in some cases priceless instruments.


How is your grandmother's 100+ year old piano, encouraging in even the most remotely possible way, the perpetuation of elephant poaching in Africa and Asia? Do any of us really believe that the constant overt, and meaningless symbolism is accomplishing anything? In typical fashion, we prefer grandiose emotion fueled "gestures", over even considering the possibility of a pragmatic and effectual solution; consequences be damned.
 
javand said:
So you're ok with banning the possession of items (antiques, artifacts, etc.) containing or made from elephant ivory? I'm guessing you simply mean that you're ok with banning the sale of elephant ivory. Which btw, is already the case federally here in the USA, with *very few* exceptions, for over 20 years.
Click to expand...

When I said "trading" of ivory artifacts I meant selling, or trading. Inheriting is a different set of circumstances that I just don't have the answers to.

I personally have no use for elephant ivory, whether pre-ban or not. I agree with you that I would also be concerned with the manner in which the ivory was harvested before the trade ban was implemented. I know that there are more complex issues involved here, such as possessing pre-ban ivory, or inheriting ivory from a family member.

I disagree that possessing pre-ban ivory would preclude the possession of illegal ivory. There are many anecdotal examples that I could come up with that would promote the illegal ivory industry.

Of course, my feelings on this matter are lacking in hard facts. I am sure that the possession of illegal ivory is very hard to trace, as are the factors that lead to a person possessing illegal ivory.

No matter where the evidence lays, I can not personally condone the trading or use of elephant ivory.
 
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