Did you think we were all just blowing smoke? Banning the ownership of ivory

When I said "trading" of ivory artifacts I meant selling, or trading. Inheriting is a different set of circumstances that I just don't have the answers to.

I personally have no use for elephant ivory, whether pre-ban or not. I agree with you that I would also be concerned with the manner in which the ivory was harvested before the trade ban was implemented. I know that there are more complex issues involved here, such as possessing pre-ban ivory, or inheriting ivory from a family member.

I disagree that possessing pre-ban ivory would preclude the possession of illegal ivory. There are many anecdotal examples that I could come up with that would promote the illegal ivory industry.

Of course, my feelings on this matter are lacking in hard facts. I am sure that the possession of illegal ivory is very hard to trace, as are the factors that lead to a person possessing illegal ivory.

No matter where the evidence lays, I can not personally condone the trading or use of elephant ivory.

May I ask what you do for a living? Whatever it is, I'm sure someone is doing it illegally. Do you think it's proper for a government to outlaw any given industry because a very small minority of those in that profession may be doing it illegally?

There are thousands of honest hard working Americans who make their livings, or parts of it in the legal ivory business. From antique dealers to collectables dealers, musical instrument repair, knife makers, custom turkey and duck call makers, pen turners and cue makers, and a few honest ivory dealers, the list goes on.

Not to mention the millions of people who's personal belongings will be made valueless, billions of dollars in personal assets.

The answer is quite easy, if elephant ivory is worth over $1,500.00 a pound in China, and about $100.00 a pound in the US, why would a smuggler bring it here. The answer is, they wouldn't.

That's why ETIS studies show that the amount of illicit ivory brought to the US from the years 2008 to 2013 was statistically insignificant, it fell below the lowest recorded category (below 2000 kg in six years) lower than 98 other countries studied. The study also showed that the US. was the most active in the fight against trafficking of illicit ivory. ETIS stands for Elephant Trade Information System, it was created by CITES to study these things.
 
Destroying irreplaceable objects is not only incredibly foolish, but a HUGE MISTAKE. IT does nothing but destroy something that we are trying to protect.


Once these animals are gone, and we cannot find anymore "ancient" ivory, we will be s!!t out of luck, because our gov destroyed billions of pounds of the stuff to "send a message."

It's like people who melt gold and f@@k with it. Gold is an extremely important resource.


"sending a message" by destroying ivory isn't the way to go about it.


If they "wanted to send a message" they should take poachers to the middle of Time Square, and beat them to death in front of millions of people.... That sends a deeper message than "we are going to take your toys away, so play nice!"



I think you may have misread my post a bit. We are agreeing about most of what you said.

The ivory crushed was not "ancient Ivory" from legitimate sources. It was illegally smuggled in to the country and caught by the customs people. The point I was making is that legal ivory should be protected, and illegal trade in poached ivory should be severely prosecuted. My statement was in agreement with you that stunts like the Times Square event do not help solve the situation. Our squeamish society would not tolerate it, but I too would like to see a few poachers/smugglers publicly punished to point out the ramifications of the Illegal trade.



Not sure what melting gold has to do with any of this...and please edit the language in your post.
 
Oregon has passed a law this year outlawing wooly mammoth ivory. I guess the Leebs in the state congress don't want the mammoth to go extinct. Very brilliant, these Leebs.
 
Oregon has passed a law this year outlawing wooly mammoth ivory. I guess the Leebs in the state congress don't want the mammoth to go extinct. Very brilliant, these Leebs.

I'm pretty sure we defeated that one, I will check.
 
California has a water crisis in part due to a three inch fish. They let farmers crops die, which jacks up the prices all over the country, and cripple the income for thousands, to save the "delta smelt". I agree that we should protect animals and wildlife when we can but many times it seems we have our priorities way out of wack. Punish the poachers and illegal traders not the law abiding citizens selling and using ivory legally. We already have laws to do that, they just are not enforced. Fight it from the top down, not the bottom up, if you want to fix it. Thanks Mark for keeping us updated and for all you have done on this front. I haven't used any ivory yet but I'm just sick and tired of being legislated to death by all these fanatics. From the EPA to PETA this stuff is getting out of hand and has to stop.
 
May I ask what you do for a living? Whatever it is, I'm sure someone is doing it illegally. Do you think it's proper for a government to outlaw any given industry because a very small minority of those in that profession may be doing it illegally?

There are thousands of honest hard working Americans who make their livings, or parts of it in the legal ivory business. From antique dealers to collectables dealers, musical instrument repair, knife makers, custom turkey and duck call makers, pen turners and cue makers, and a few honest ivory dealers, the list goes on.

Not to mention the millions of people who's personal belongings will be made valueless, billions of dollars in personal assets.

The answer is quite easy, if elephant ivory is worth over $1,500.00 a pound in China, and about $100.00 a pound in the US, why would a smuggler bring it here. The answer is, they wouldn't.

That's why ETIS studies show that the amount of illicit ivory brought to the US from the years 2008 to 2013 was statistically insignificant, it fell below the lowest recorded category (below 2000 kg in six years) lower than 98 other countries studied. The study also showed that the US. was the most active in the fight against trafficking of illicit ivory. ETIS stands for Elephant Trade Information System, it was created by CITES to study these things.

I am sure that those who make part of their living on trading elephant ivory could supplement their incomes from another source. Stopping the trade of ivory would not make or break one's ability to earn an income.

Maybe radical action is needed to save elephant populations, whether popular or not. If every country did their part to curb ivory trade then perhaps elephant populations would increase.

I know that Asian countries are the source for much of the poached ivory demand. That is not something that we can really control in the west. Nor can we control the actions of the poachers themselves. However, if we can control our own ivory trade better then how could it hurt the overall goal of saving elephant populations?
 
Shane,
I agree that the elephants need protection. I would be the first person happy to see not one more elephant killed for their ivory.

However, the issue being discussed isn't over the US using new ivory. That is already illegal to import to most all western countries. What the issue is about, is old, pre-ban ivory - pianos, knives, antique violin bows, guitars, and grandma's little tiny ball ear rings. The ridiculousness is that things like mammoth ivory get rolled up in the frenzy.

The United States is based on freedoms. Not all things you want to do are automatically OK, but things that don't affect the public good or harm others are what we spent 200+ years defending and fighting for. Because a vegan actress, or a animal conservationist in Africa doesn't like ivory isn't sufficient reason to tell you you can't own your dad's old shaving brush which was his dad's before that.

We should fight illegal ivory trade tooth and nail where it exists...not where it doesn't.

I don't want to derail this thread, but I would rather we spent a few billion saving elephants than the billions we spent saving the middle east oil....which hasn't worked well. Oil is an endangered species that won't recover no matter how we try. So far all we have done is make more unrest and many more enemies.
 
I am sure that those who make part of their living on trading elephant ivory could supplement their incomes from another source. Stopping the trade of ivory would not make or break one's ability to earn an income.

Maybe radical action is needed to save elephant populations, whether popular or not. If every country did their part to curb ivory trade then perhaps elephant populations would increase.

I know that Asian countries are the source for much of the poached ivory demand. That is not something that we can really control in the west. Nor can we control the actions of the poachers themselves. However, if we can control our own ivory trade better then how could it hurt the overall goal of saving elephant populations?

My question was what do you do? Do you think it would be proper for the government to outlaw what you do because a very small minority of the people in that business may be doing it illegally?

Many people, even on the pro ban side concede that a complete ban on legal ivory in the US will not save a single elephant. "We need to do it just to send a message."
 
My question was what do you do? Do you think it would be proper for the government to outlaw what you do because a very small minority of the people in that business may be doing it illegally?

Many people, even on the pro ban side concede that a complete ban on legal ivory in the US will not save a single elephant. "We need to do it just to send a message."

I understand your argument Mark. My profession doesn't really apply to your argument, but I do see your point. However, owning ivory as a status symbol for some people. This could lead them to procure more ivory if it is within their means, whether legal or not. I know that is completely hypothetical, but it is something I could foresee happening.

I don't think I necessarily have all of the answers to this issue, nor do I completely disagree with all of your points of view Mark. I enjoy the discussion and getting other's points of view though. It is a very complex issue.
 
Mark, I don't doubt you're right, but I can't find anything to confirm this. Would you mind sharing the source?
 
Mark, I don't doubt you're right, but I can't find anything to confirm this. Would you mind sharing the source?

Sure, here it is from Robert Mitchell of Elephant Protection Association.


New York Law Banning Possession and Transportation of Ivory Fails Due to Your Activism!
When the emergency alert went out about the New York Big 5 African Species Bill went out last week, you responded, and you made a difference! The New York Legislature has adjourned, and, at least for now, the bill has died on the table.
When I sent out the alert last week, the New York Senate was in the process of voting on the Big 5 Bill. No one was expecting this bill to come up, and the Senate actually voted to pass the bill and send it to the NY Assembly. However, because of your response, including hard work from coalition members NRA and Knife Rights, the Senate recalled the bill from the Assembly and wiped out the vote by Reconsidering the bill. That action nullified the original Senate vote, preventing the bill from moving any further. Now that the legislative session is adjourned, the bill cannot advance.
This is a big deal. You litterally helped snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I received lots of feedback from people who called their Senators. That feedback showed the Senators did not realize what they had voted upon and were very concerned when you informed them of the harm that criminalizing possession of ivory would cause. Your calls - calls from constituents who care - combined with other lobbying efforts carried the day!
While we should celebrate this victory, we need to remember that this bill can still come back in future legislative sessions. What this shows, much like the other victories we have enjoyed in state legislatures this year, is that the best way to fight an ivory ban is to make sure your legislators are informed about its true implications. Our record to date is that informed legislators do not pass ill conceived ivory bans, but it is clear that ivory ban proponents do not intend to give up the fight.
California, Washington, Delaware, and Federal Regs on the Horizon
While you should take pride in accomplishments so far, there's not much time for rest. California's proposed ivory ban, AB96, looks as though it may be passed by the legislature before California adjourns in July. The next step would be to the governor. We will try to keep you appraised of the progress of this bill and what you can do to stop it.
Although we were able to stop the Washington State legislature from passing an ivory ban, special interests in Washington are working on a voter initiative to supercede the legislature. Professional Activists are currently gathering the needed signatures to put that measure on the ballot for Washington this fall. They must submit signatures by early July, and with the professional organizations behind the signature gathering process, it would be shocking if they could not meet this burden. That means people from Washington in particular will need to be ready to speak out. There's a huge publicity campaign building against ivory, and speaking truth to these monied interests will be our best defense.
Delaware has introduced SB156. Like other ivory bans, it also sweeps in ivory from mammoths, hippos and other listed species. It has limited exceptions for pre 1975 musical instruments containing less than 15% of ivory and antiques older than 100 years with less than 5% of ivory. It also has steep penalties reaching beyond $50,000 and a year in prison. Unique with this ban is a $500 reward for informants who give law inforcement information leading to a conviction under this provision. People from Delaware - oppose this ban by contacting your state legislators, especially state senators!
Federal Law
US Fish & Wildlife has been saying since last summer that new regulations that would change or repeal the Special Rule for African Elephants will be out in “a couple of months” or “a matter of weeks.” We know that FWS coordinated a proposed version of the regulation with the Office of Management and Budget early this year which has not been shared publicly. We also know that FWS has asked Congress not to legislate on this issue until their proposed regulation is published. FWS claims the proposed regulation will contain “de minimis” exceptions that should take care of concerns expressed by legal ivory owners.
We remain very skeptical of FWS’s claims about satisfying legal ivory owners’ concerns, especially given the harm that is already taking place under Director’s Order 210 and other agency actions. If they actually solved problems, why have they not been discussed publicly? Our experience with New York suggests that “de minimis” exceptions will be too narrowly drawn to help most people who own items that incorporate ivory, that any possible licensing scheme won’t actually result in the grant of licenses to trade ivory, and that it is just an attempt to split the coalition opposed to banning legal ivory.
In Congress, Congressman Don Young’s African Elephant Conservation and Legal Ivory Possession Act of 2015 (H.R. 697) has been included in what is known as the “Sportsmen’s Package” of legislation in the House of Representatives. This legislation has bipartisan support and is working its way through committee. Similar language is not included in a companion measure pending in the Senate, although we expect a bill similar to what Senator Alexander offered in the last legislative session will be offered in the Senate soon. Regardless, legislation is pending in Congress that would protect legal ivory owners. In addition to this legislation, language to protect ivory owners has been approved at the committee level in the House as part of the Department of Interior’s appropriations process. The most useful thing you can do right now at the federal level is to contact your Senators and encourage them to protect the rights of legal ivory owners. When a bill is offered on the Senate side, we will send out a more specific alert.
If and when FWS publishes a regulation, we believe there will be a 60 day comment period following publication. It will be crucial for as many people as possible to make comments to FWS during this period. We will send an alert and instructions as fast as possible once we learn of publication. Once that period closes, FWS will need to consider and respond to comments in any publication of a final regulation. That process, too, is likely to take months. Bottom line – the earliest there is likely to be any significant change in the law at the federal level will be late this year.
As I said at the top of this message - congratulations on a job well done in New York, but we have a lot more to do!

And Knife rights


Knife Rights Wins Two in New York
Third Win Blocked by Senate Republicans



With the adjournment of the New York Legislature, Knife Rights and knife owners can chalk up two wins and one disappointing loss. Both the proposed Machete Ban and the Draconian Ivory Possession and Transportation Ban were defeated. The "fix" to the gravity knife statute that would end bogus New York City knife arrests did not pass for the second year in a row. (Details can be found below.)

However, the wins and loss come with an asterisk. All three bills will remain active through next year's session, beginning where they left off this year. So, we'll have to be back in Albany next year to again lobby against against both bills we defeated this year and to support the "fix" to the state's gravity knife law that didn't get over the finish line this year.

Senate leadership has assured Knife Rights that they will consider a knife law reform bill next year. Knife Rights encourages all New York knife law reform supporters and Second Amendment supporters to hold the Senators' feet to the fire over the next six months. At every opportunity, every meeting, every town hall, keep up the pressure by insisting they support knife law reform next
 
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