Differences in the Buck/124/USA

[Lawrence Helm]

Lawrence, You have a point, cocobola is a real wood, Not a laminate. Man made. But we are in doubt the year of your model 124 carried that type wood handles. Still, a good photo would help to clear this up. DM

I doubt I can do the photos today -- maybe tomorrow.

Lawrence

 

[DeSotoSky]

I'll stand by my original statement. The term "cocobolo" as used by Buck is a dye color, not the wood species.

"DymondWood® is available in 52 standard colors. To see these colors, please download the DymondWood® brochure.pdf . Please refer to the colors by the names given in this brochure(e.g. Cocobolo, Royal Jacaranda, etc)."

 

[Badhammer]

I'll stand by my original statement. The term "cocobolo" as used by Buck is a dye color, not the wood species.

"DymondWood® is available in 52 standard colors. To see these colors, please download the DymondWood® brochure.pdf . Please refer to the colors by the names given in this brochure(e.g. Cocobolo, Royal Jacaranda, etc)."

I agree with you. Buck spells it differently and normally includes a reference to Dymondwood when they are talking about any of their scale choices.

 

[Lawrence Helm]

I'll stand by my original statement. The term "cocobolo" as used by Buck is a dye color, not the wood species.

"DymondWood® is available in 52 standard colors. To see these colors, please download the DymondWood® brochure.pdf . Please refer to the colors by the names given in this brochure(e.g. Cocobolo, Royal Jacaranda, etc)."

Sure, if you wanted to laminate dymondwood with cocobola wood you'd need to match the cocobola color. Dymondwood is not a color. Cocobolo is not a color, but cocobola has a color. If you wanted a laminate to match cocobolo wood you would want it to be colored like cocobolo wood. What I have written in this paragraph matches the conclusions about dymondwood and cocobolo wood one can draw from the advertisement for cocobolo and cocobolo/diamondwood on the archery site cited above.

Lawrence

 

[DesertChris]

Sure, if you wanted to laminate dymondwood with cocobola wood you'd need to match the cocobola color. Dymondwood is not a color. Cocobolo is not a color, but cocobola has a color. If you wanted a laminate to match cocobolo wood you would want it to be colored like cocobolo wood. What I have written in this paragraph matches the conclusions about dymondwood and cocobolo wood one can draw from the advertisement for cocobolo and cocobolo/diamondwood on the archery site cited above.

Lawrence

In this particular instance, cocobola is indeed a color, as is rosewood, and many others..... 52 colors of Dymondwood, these are dyed to look like certain varieties of wood, and then given those names to signify what it is supposed to look like.

Here are 2 screen captures from the manufacturer's own website, detailing what it is etc.....
Note that they state it is made with dyed Birch. Available in 52 colors.

 

[Lawrence Helm]

Yeah, I read the dymondwood site before I got to the archery site. But since dymondwood can be used as a laminate, why color it cocobolo unless you are going to laminate it with cocobolo wood? And why do the adds for the cocobolo Buck knives and stress in most cases that they are made with cocobolo wood if they are not? I'll admit what Dymondwood, Buck and those who sell Buck knives have been ambiguous, but nothing I've read convinces me that the "wood" used on Buck cocobolo knives is not laminated and if it is, then the laminate materials must be cocobolo wood and cocobolo colored dymondwood.

On the other hand, assume I am wrong and these knives use dymondwood exclusively and not laminated together with cocobolo wood, something like phenolic and micarta handles. Why then would sellers advertise them as made of cocobolo wood?

I have two 2014 Buck knives sold to me as having cocobolo handles. When I look at them, these handles appear to be laminated. If they are laminated then they are probably laminated with cocobolo wood and dymondwood. If they are not laminated but merely colored to look like cocobolo wood then why do they seem to be laminated?

Lawrence

 

[DesertChris]

There is another possibility for your knife though, back then the custom shop offered some choices in exotic hardwoods.
You could get a 124 in a few different woods, according to the '81-'82 custom shop catalog.....





This is where a photo of your 124 could come in handy

 

[DesertChris]

Yeah, I read the dymondwood site before I got to the archery site. But since dymondwood can be used as a laminate, why color it cocobolo unless you are going to laminate it with cocobolo wood? And why do the adds for the cocobolo Buck knives and stress in most cases that they are made with cocobolo wood if they are not? I'll admit what Dymondwood, Buck and those who sell Buck knives have been ambiguous, but nothing I've read convinces me that the "wood" used on Buck cocobolo knives is not laminated and if it is, then the laminate materials must be cocobolo wood and cocobolo colored dymondwood.

On the other hand, assume I am wrong and these knives use dymondwood exclusively and not laminated together with cocobolo wood, something like phenolic and micarta handles. Why then would sellers advertise them as made of cocobolo wood?

I have two 2014 Buck knives sold to me as having cocobolo handles. When I look at them, these handles appear to be laminated. If they are laminated then they are probably laminated with cocobolo wood and dymondwood. If they are not laminated but merely colored to look like cocobolo wood then why do they seem to be laminated?

Lawrence

Buck clearly states cocobola dymondwood in their advertising.
Ebay sellers and others can put whatever they want. Shoot, ebay sellers frequently lie, misrepresent, and do many scandalous things to sell their wares.

Here is a photo for the 119 options, from the 2014 catalog. Buck's official advertising!



Dymondwood in all its varieties of colors are all laminates.
The sheets are dyed, and then laminated, among other processes to achieve the desired effect.

The Buck cocabola dymondwood handles are just that....dymondwood.

The archery site you linked may have used actual cocobolo and cocobola dymondwood together in a bow,
But that would be something they did, not the manufacturer of the dymondwood.

 

[David Martin]

Good point Desert. Had Buck gone to dymondwood by the early 80's? Most writers state Buck went to the laminate wood in 1994. Lawrence says his knife doesn't have a year date. I have a 1994 model 124 and the handle is of a laminate. I'll call it birch, it could be rosewood depending on the dye. DM

 

[DesertChris]

Good point Desert. Had Buck gone to dymondwood by the early 80's? Most writers state Buck went to the laminate wood in 1994. Lawrence says his knife doesn't have a year date. I have a 1994 model 124 and the handle is of a laminate. I'll call it birch, it could be rosewood depending on the dye. DM

That is a great question.
The 1983 and 1984 catalogs state the 124 is made with impregnated birch, which suggests chunks of wood impregnated with resin etc....






HOWEVER...... the 1983 catalog states the Kalinga and Akonua are made with impregnated birch, but the 1984 catalog says the Kalinga and Akonua are made with LAMINATED HARDWOOD in a rich winewood color.







So Laminates were being used in 1984 on at least 2 models.

 

[David Martin]

This is a good finding and sets the date back 10 years from what some authors penned. Good job, DM

 

[TAH]

The choil is the Ricasso. Just a different term.

David,

Actually, the choil and ricasso are different. The choil is the finger cut-out area below the ricasso. :thumbup:

Lawrence,

I, too, have read about the "blockiness" on the 124 handles, especially on the current new release models. But here is a borrowed photo from forum member, mwputnam, that shows the "blockiness" of an early 70s 124 handle with a lanyard hole in the pommel. For comparison sake, the following photo is of my late 70s (more rounded) 124 handle taken at the same angle.


mwputnam's early 70s 124 handle...

My late 70s 124 handle...

 

[David Martin]

Ok, I'll look closer at this term. I have the same year model 124 that putnam's is, a 1973 (with the lanyard hole) and mine has the more squared handled micarta slabs. Like those in your photo. DM

 

[DesertChris]

This is a good finding and sets the date back 10 years from what some authors penned. Good job, DM

Thanks David

Guess what? I found another interesting tidbit of laminated history......

1979 catalog, the colt 703 refers to laminated wood/epoxy that pushes it back even farther.

 

[David Martin]

TAH, I found your site and ok, I'll go with that diagram. But here's a photo from Right beside the one you copied and now both the choil and ricasso are mysteriously missing. Which would have been a good example to put the terms on. Instead we have a quillion, indicated at the tip of the finger guard. Other sites show a different image. I've never seen this depicted. DM

 

[Lawrence Helm]

Buck clearly states cocobola dymondwood in their advertising.
Ebay sellers and others can put whatever they want. Shoot, ebay sellers frequently lie, misrepresent, and do many scandalous things to sell their wares.

Here is a photo for the 119 options, from the 2014 catalog. Buck's official advertising!



Dymondwood in all its varieties of colors are all laminates.
The sheets are dyed, and then laminated, among other processes to achieve the desired effect.

The Buck cocabola dymondwood handles are just that....dymondwood.

The archery site you linked may have used actual cocobolo and cocobola dymondwood together in a bow,
But that would be something they did, not the manufacturer of the dymondwood.

Here is something from a knife supplier explaining what dymondwood is:

"Dymondwood is a laminated material that is made by dying thin layers of hardwoods and layering them together with resin and pressing them all together under extreme pressure and heat.

"We offer Dymondwood in a wide variety of different color combinations as well as different thicknesses.

You will notice below that all our Dymondwood is listed in Ply's. In order to get consistent layups every time we order by the number of layers rather than the thickness. This ensures that the pattern is always the same today ... tomorrow and beyond."

I take this to mean that Cocobolo dymondwood consists of pressing layers of cocobolo together with resin.

Lawrence

 

[TAH]

David,

I know what you're saying. There isn't a lot of consistency in the diagrams, but I am sure the ricasso is the flat part of the blade in front of the guard. The choil is at the bottom only. Below are two diagrams using a 119. Both diagrams do not label the ricasso. The arrow is pointing directly to the choil cut-out.

This diagram labels the ricasso, but not the choil. Note how the line points above the choil onto the blade flat.

 

[DesertChris]

Here is something from a knife supplier explaining what dymondwood is:

"Dymondwood is a laminated material that is made by dying thin layers of hardwoods and layering them together with resin and pressing them all together under extreme pressure and heat.

"We offer Dymondwood in a wide variety of different color combinations as well as different thicknesses.

You will notice below that all our Dymondwood is listed in Ply's. In order to get consistent layups every time we order by the number of layers rather than the thickness. This ensures that the pattern is always the same today ... tomorrow and beyond."

I take this to mean that Cocobolo dymondwood consists of pressing layers of cocobolo together with resin.

Lawrence

The knife supplier should have been more clear and precise in their description......

The MANUFACTURER states on their website that they use BIRCH to make the dymondwood, they dye it to look like different woods, or even just dye it in colors like green......
So nope, no actual cocobolo in cocobola dymondwood......

Here are some of the color choices they offer, from a pdf downloaded from their website.
BUT....although on the pdf file they say they use hardwood veneers in the process, they also say they dye the veneers.
There would be no need to dye actual cocobolo.

Notice some of the colors aren't even based on varieties of trees....







And just to be sure, from the manufacturer's own website.
under technical specifications it says "species birch"

 

[DesertChris]

And then there is the 1994 Buck catalog in which there are 100 series knives with "cocobola" handles.
Buck clearly states that the wood is dyed and laminated birchwood, made to look like cocobola.....

 

[LostViking]

Ricasso is the unground part of the blade between the Quillon/Guard and the plunge cut. Choil is on the bottom of the Ricasso, possibly even onto the blade. Quillon is a dagger name, but also a term for the guard.