Different Steel Alloys...what's best

These threads, along with the “survival” threads give me headaches :rolleyes:


I went from,

A) Knowing nothing about knife steels 15+ years ago and using anything w/out worry.
b) Trying to figure out the “best” steels..
C) Turing into a “steel snob”

and finally..

D) Using everything and not giving a damn like in the beginning, who cares.. I currently use 154CM and S30V - and they work fine, honestly can’t tell the difference. I keep my blades TP sharp (or lightsaber sharp ;)), and just take pleasure in actual use.. everything else is overrated bs.. I do prefer stainless and I still coat with Tuf-Glide..

You steel masters should get together and write a book :D
 
my only advice is to leave posts like this to people with a greater understanding of steels.

sure, sometimes steel experts get too technical and go way over amateurs heads, but at least they don't generally just put out completely wrong info...
 
Ok so as I said before I am no expert. I also asked for corrections which I got plenty of ;) (and keep them coming! I don't want to mislead anyone). So now that all the above has been given to me and I altered the post, is there anything I still need to change before I begin the long job of listing my opinions on all steels I have worked with (and research every other one so I provide all I hoped for in this thread) ?
Novices shouldn't instruct other novices? Also, not to be rude either, but your post is a little like walking into a forum of learned professors and trying to teach them with inferior knowledge. It could also be considered harmful knowledge (for the wallet anyway).
 
That's quoting a LOT of the information found on the internet to the to T but it's also mis-stated in saying that carbon steel is harder to sharpen than stainless steel because it gets harder??

There's actually a great ease of sharpening that can be found in commonly used Carbon steels like 1095 or Opinels XC90.

Sure you might need something more real than a dollar tree cinder-block type whetstone such as a basic diamond stone to put an edge on it but those types of "stones" don't cut anything that cost more than a dollar and the blanket statements just don't apply.

Even the reccomended method by KA-BAR for their 1095CV is a good ole' Arkansas stone and there's nothing difficult at all about putting or rather keeping a hair poppin edge on their steel.
 
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Many very good stainless steels have huge amounts of carbon, M390 or ZDP-189 to be specific. I think if you are trying to explain blade steels to someone with no experience, you'd be best off just telling them that carbon content is a key factor in edge-holding, but because plain carbon steel rusts easily, people add things like Cr to the composition.

Good stainless steels have enough carbon to hold an edge and enough other stuff to keep it from being super brittle and rust-prone. (M390)

Good carbon steels have enough carbon for the edge-holding and enough other stuff to keep it from shattering (M4)

This is what I would consider 'beginner level' blade steel info. Carbides and grain structure and heat treatment are mentionable, but a person is only going really understand what the addition of vanadium for example does to a blade's performance if they are actually interested in this whole knife science stuff, which they will know once you explain the 'beginner' things.
 
There are very large generalisation in the original post. For anyone interested here are good places, IMO that cover the basics, to start reading about steel, element affects and terminology that are accurate in their descriptions.

Z knives knife steel FAQ


Chemical Elements and their affects


Steel And Metallurgic Terminology Glossary

Different-steel-types by Sandvik

important-factors by Sandvik

knife-steel-knowledge, technical-glossary by Sandvik

knife-steel-knowledge by Sandvik

Steel_Terminology.pdf

After these basics look into the following books (this biography is taken from hypefreeblades.com) I have not been able to obtain all of them so I cannot comment on most of them.

Metallurgy Books

Atlas of isothermal transformation diagrams
the United States Steel Company.

A compilation of transformation diagrams of many common steel alloys, with descriptions of hardenability, and various phases created by cooling from the austenitic phase.


Elements Of Hardenability
M.A. Grossman

An in-depth examination of the nature of steel hardenability which includes chapters on hardenability tests, the nature of hardening, the nature of the quenching process and the effects of alloying elements on hardenability.


Heat Treater's Guide
ASM Publication
ISBN: 0871705206

A compilation of data for each of the standard AISI grades of irons and carbon, as well as alloy, tool and stainless steels. Each data sheet gives the chemical composition of the alloy, a listing of similar U.S. and foreign alloys, its characteristics, and the recommended heat treating procedure. Most of the compilation goes much further and offers a wide variety of additional heat treating data such as representative micrographs, isothermal transformation diagrams, cooling transformation diagrams, tempering curves and data on dimensional change.


Metallurgy
Bert J. Moniz
ISBN: 0-8269-3506-0

Metallurgy covers all aspects of metallurgical engineering including the three areas of extractive, mechanical, and physical metallurgy. The textbook covers both theory and applications of metallurgical principles as applied to the conditioning, design, identification, selection, testing, and processing of metals and alloys. Topics include heat treatment, crystal structures, phase diagrams, materials standards, specific alloys, nondestructive and destructive testing, and fabrication methods. This new edition also covers the latest improvements in laboratory and industry techniques and equipment and adds new content valuable to metallurgy technicians and engineers.

Metallurgy Fundamentals
Daniel Brandt
ISBN: 0-87006-922-5

Metallurgy Fundamentals provides the student with instruction on the basic properties, characteristics, and production of the major metal families. Clear, concise language and numerous illustrations make this an easy-to-understand text for an introductory course in metallurgy. Over 450 tables, diagrams, and photographs show both the theoretical and practical aspects of metallurgy. This is perhaps the easiest to understand of any introductory metallurgy texts, Kevin Cashen says he uses this as his textbook for all of his bladesmithing metallurgy classes.

Quenching and Martempering
the ASM Committees on Quenching and Martempering

Includes chapters on methods of quenching, mechanisms of quenching, testing and evaluation of quench mediums, water and water based quench mediums, oil quenching mediums, gas quenching, factors effecting cooling rate, quenching equipment, maintenance of quenching installations, quenching of induction heated parts, quenching of flame heated parts, safety precautions, martempering methods and mediums, operation and control in martempering and equipment and handling in martempering.


Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist
John D. Verhoeven

This book explains the metallurgy of steel and its heat treatment for non-metallurgists. It starts from simple concepts—beginning at the level of high-school chemistry classes and building to more complex concepts involved in heat treatment of most all types of steel as well as cast iron. It was inspired by the author when working with practicing bladesmiths for more than 15 years. Most chapters in the book contain a summary at the end. These summaries provide a short review of the contents of each chapter. This book is THE practical primer on steel metallurgy for those who heat, forge, or machine steel.


Tool Steel Simplified
Frank R. Palmer & George V. Luerssen

World's best selling handbook of modern practice for the man who makes tools and dies. This classic text presents detailed topics covering heat-treating methods and equipment; physical characteristics of tool steel; selecting the right tool steel for each kind of tool; properties, heat treatment, and testing of tool steel; hot acid etch test; spark testing; timbre and hardenability tests; furnace atmosphere; quenching and tempering; troubleshooting; etc. 535 pgs. Illustrated.

Contemporary Knives

An Edge in the Kitchen
Chad Ward
ISBN: 978-0-06-118848-0

An Edge in the Kitchen is the solution – an intelligent and delightful debunking of the mysteries of kitchen knives, once and for all. If you can stack blocks you can cut restaurant quality diced vegetables. If you can fold a paper airplane you can sharpen your knives better than many professionals. If you are willing to be a little adventurous you can find modern kitchen knives that outperform anything ever produced. Veteran cook Chad Ward provides an in-depth guide the most important tool in the kitchen, including choosing the best kitchen knives in your price range, practical tutorials on knife skills, a step-by-step section on sharpening, and more-all illustrated with beautiful photographs throughout. Along the way you will discover what a cow sword is, and why you might want one; why chefs are abandoning their heavy German knives in droves; and why the Claw and the Pinch, strange as they may sound, are in fact the best way to make precision vegetable cuts with speed and style. An Edge in the Kitchen is the one-and-only guide to the most important tool in the kitchen.

Messerklingen und Stahl
Roman Landes
ISBN: 978-3-938711-04-0

A ground breaking work in modern applications of steel for knife edges supported by almost a century of studies on that specific topic. Thus far it is only in German.

After one read through those look into patent information, peer reviewed scientific articles in journals such as Metallurgical and Materials Transactions,
Journal of Alloys and Compounds, Materials Science and Engineering and International Journal of Powder Metallurgy.

After all of that you realise what is hype, what is truth and you get to a point as P_Meticulous described where you just dont give a damn where I am currently as well.
 
Good point. Ill try to fix the original post so this thread isn't garbage. I do however know that when I try to explain to my friend who doesn't have time for each alloy to be explained why I lead him to a specific alloy I tell him the basics. That was my plan for that post but you are right it is not completely true


I see the ability of a poster to go back and re-write a post long after it's posted, and with many members pointing out the obvious flaws, as a problem in the Forums format.

Changing the Original Post after much of it's content has been questioned is like deleting a thread; any content the Original Poster found embarrassing is removed, and and all of the following responses become moot.

I suggest that just closing a thread (but leaving it intact) is a better way for the Original Poster to avoid any additional embarrassment then going back to re-write his original opinions.

After all, the OP can't go back and forget the points the other members have already made, and trying to save grace by retracting the original opinions stated often makes the OP look even more foolish.




Big Mike
 
Ok so as I said before I am no expert. I also asked for corrections which I got plenty of ;) (and keep them coming! I don't want to mislead anyone). So now that all the above has been given to me and I altered the post, is there anything I still need to change before I begin the long job of listing my opinions on all steels I have worked with (and research every other one so I provide all I hoped for in this thread) ?

I'm sure your intentions are good and all, but a non-expert proclaiming that he is going to tell novices what's what isn't a good idea on so many levels. I strongly suggest becoming more of an expert before moving on to individual steels.

This place is full of steel fanatics, and one better be on their level before coming in here and teaching.

I wouldn't touch the topic with a ten foot pole, myself. I would fully expect what happened here to happen to me! :)
 
Ok so honestly I think you guys don't see my purpose for creating this thread. I don't want to be the professor. I wanted to start a thread that I wish existed and have you guys give the info, the people who know.

I need to know more about steels which is why I actually made the thread. I just started with what I thought was right to kick it off and wanted you to give the actual info. The only reason I started the thread as an obvious newbie was because I couldn't find much on all of these steels. If an expert had made a thread like this thats what I'd be looking at.

So what I want you to understand is that this was intended as a pool of info from everyone. I'm glad that I can't "fake my way through them" as someone said because I want their info. Please continue to provide it. Aside from the heat I'm taking from you all its going well. People are providing info, correcting myths and wrong info. That's what I wanted.

Don't think of it as me waking into a college and teaching professors, think of it as me building the college and "hiring" teachers.
 
I just want to make sure you understand I'm not by any means teaching. I'm trying to get advice while starting a good thread.

I AM NOT TEACHING, or at least not trying to.

I'm sorry this was misleading.
 
I'm going to let people respond before giving my opinions on individual alloys and will do is In another post.

I need to know more about steels which is why I actually made the thread. I just started with what I thought was right to kick it off and wanted you to give the actual info.

Don't think of it as me waking into a college and teaching professors, think of it as me building the college and "hiring" teachers.

Um, OK.
 
I just want to make sure you understand I'm not by any means teaching. I'm trying to get advice while starting a good thread.

I AM NOT TEACHING, or at least not trying to.

I'm sorry this was misleading.

Sure sounds like you are professing.

Good point. Ill try to fix the original post so this thread isn't garbage. I do however know that when I try to explain to my friend who doesn't have time for each alloy to be explained why I lead him to a specific alloy I tell him the basics. That was my plan for that post but you are right it is not completely true

And you hadn't even begun ".... the long job of listing my opinions on all steels I have worked with (and research every other one so I provide all I hoped for in this thread)"

Again, despite some hubris, I admire the intent.
 
Sure sounds like you are professing.



And you hadn't even begun ".... the long job of listing my opinions on all steels I have worked with (and research every other one so I provide all I hoped for in this thread)"

Again, despite some hubris, I admire the intent.

Thanks. I had planned to do that and I'm starting a post on it. I realized though that you guys are right and I am not the one who should give the facts out. Just my opinions so I'm getting that ready.
 
Sure sounds like you are professing.



And you hadn't even begun ".... the long job of listing my opinions on all steels I have worked with (and research every other one so I provide all I hoped for in this thread)"

Again, despite some hubris, I admire the intent.

I have written things on 440, 420 HC, 1055, and SK-5 but only stories of my experiences. I'm goanna post it shortly.



And yeah...reading back over it does sound like professing...
 
Thanks. I had planned to do that and I'm starting a post on it. I realized though that you guys are right and I am not the one who should give the facts out. Just my opinions so I'm getting that ready.

So you are going to give us (or beginners) a post or thread containing your opinions on every steel you have worked with, and opinions on "every other one" based on your research?

Well...in all seriousness I wish you the best on that one. :thumbup:
 
So you are going to give us (or beginners) a post or thread containing your opinions on every steel you have worked with, and opinions on "every other one" based on your research?

Not any more...just experiences and opinions. Ill leave the rest up to the real professors :)
 
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