Different Steel Alloys...what's best

-Lucky- said:
This thread is hilarious. 10/10 if serious. 7/10 if troll.
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Ya...probably. Especially to the 2 guests I noticed are browsing :p it went way downhill from my original idea

Oh wait, the guests are gone already! I wonder why...:(
 
marcinek said:
So you are going to give us (or beginners) a post or thread containing your opinions on every steel you have worked with, and opinions on "every other one" based on your research?

Well...in all seriousness I wish you the best on that one. :thumbup:
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Thanks. I really wish I had not written this the way I did. I should have left my useless info out and just let you all put the info in. I didn't think I'd get this much help, so I tried to do it...hindsight it's a mistake. Anyway, hopefully this thread isn't garbage yet. I hope there's good info to come.
 
TantoFan said:
Not any more...just experiences and opinions. Ill leave the rest up to the real professors :)
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That's what I asked. If you are going to give us "your opinions on every steel you have worked with, and opinions on "every other one" based on your research."

Again....hope it works smoothly and sucessfully. I'll leave you with the words of great philosopher and thinker....may have been Aristotle...one can Google it if they gots to know...he said "Man's got to know his limitations." Wise words.
 
Anyone opposed to starting over with a new thread? This ones useless but I still want to know the original question!

Whaddaya say? Start from scratch? Sorry about this. Like I said. It went sour on me cuz I tried to do it all.
 
I'm hoping if anyone ever needs help with steel choice this thread will provide EVERYTHING they need to know.
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I knew I put my intent somewhere. Obviously it drifted away after I actually started typing.
 
TantoFan said:
Yeah. That is true. There's not a lot of info on google though, or at least not user opinions. I hoped to spark up some conversation on the topic. Google is probably the best answer though
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Don't be So hard on yourself Tantofan, my last post was not directed at you or this thread, merely my belief that the if were playing with quotes than I believe that mercinek's statement was "signature worthy".
 
stvpourciau said:
Don't be So hard on yourself Tantofan, my last post was not directed at you or this thread, merely my belief that the if were playing with quotes than I believe that mercinek's statement was "signature worthy".
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I do agree on that one. Looking at it that way it is a perfect one to go in a sig.
 
Lets put it this way. You stated that this thread is a reference to help people out, yet in your first post, you were completely wrong about what nickel and vanadium are primarily used for in blade steel. Those were just the two most glaring errors, mind you.. You got a fair bit of your remarks about chromium and manganese wrong too. Not exactly an auspicious start.
 
TantoFan said:
Anyone opposed to starting over with a new thread? This ones useless but I still want to know the original question!

Whaddaya say? Start from scratch? Sorry about this. Like I said. It went sour on me cuz I tried to do it all.
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Why are you so intent on making definitive thread with you as OP?

Just leave it be. Don't try too hard.
 
TantoFan said:
Yeah. That is true. There's not a lot of info on google though, or at least not user opinions. I hoped to spark up some conversation on the topic. Google is probably the best answer though
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Are opinions all you are interested in?

I thought my previous post was pretty basic. More basic metallurgy as discussed on the Sandvik is difficult to find.

Guess I will have to repost:

There are very large generalisation in the original post. For anyone interested here are good places, IMO that cover the basics, to start reading about steel, element affects and terminology that are accurate in their descriptions.

Z knives knife steel FAQ


Chemical Elements and their affects


Steel And Metallurgic Terminology Glossary

Different-steel-types by Sandvik

important-factors by Sandvik

knife-steel-knowledge, technical-glossary by Sandvik

knife-steel-knowledge by Sandvik

Steel_Terminology.pdf

After these basics look into the following books (this biography is taken from hypefreeblades.com) I have not been able to obtain all of them so I cannot comment on most of them.

Metallurgy Books

Atlas of isothermal transformation diagrams
the United States Steel Company.

A compilation of transformation diagrams of many common steel alloys, with descriptions of hardenability, and various phases created by cooling from the austenitic phase.


Elements Of Hardenability
M.A. Grossman

An in-depth examination of the nature of steel hardenability which includes chapters on hardenability tests, the nature of hardening, the nature of the quenching process and the effects of alloying elements on hardenability.


Heat Treater's Guide
ASM Publication
ISBN: 0871705206

A compilation of data for each of the standard AISI grades of irons and carbon, as well as alloy, tool and stainless steels. Each data sheet gives the chemical composition of the alloy, a listing of similar U.S. and foreign alloys, its characteristics, and the recommended heat treating procedure. Most of the compilation goes much further and offers a wide variety of additional heat treating data such as representative micrographs, isothermal transformation diagrams, cooling transformation diagrams, tempering curves and data on dimensional change.


Metallurgy
Bert J. Moniz
ISBN: 0-8269-3506-0

Metallurgy covers all aspects of metallurgical engineering including the three areas of extractive, mechanical, and physical metallurgy. The textbook covers both theory and applications of metallurgical principles as applied to the conditioning, design, identification, selection, testing, and processing of metals and alloys. Topics include heat treatment, crystal structures, phase diagrams, materials standards, specific alloys, nondestructive and destructive testing, and fabrication methods. This new edition also covers the latest improvements in laboratory and industry techniques and equipment and adds new content valuable to metallurgy technicians and engineers.

Metallurgy Fundamentals
Daniel Brandt
ISBN: 0-87006-922-5

Metallurgy Fundamentals provides the student with instruction on the basic properties, characteristics, and production of the major metal families. Clear, concise language and numerous illustrations make this an easy-to-understand text for an introductory course in metallurgy. Over 450 tables, diagrams, and photographs show both the theoretical and practical aspects of metallurgy. This is perhaps the easiest to understand of any introductory metallurgy texts, Kevin Cashen says he uses this as his textbook for all of his bladesmithing metallurgy classes.

Quenching and Martempering
the ASM Committees on Quenching and Martempering

Includes chapters on methods of quenching, mechanisms of quenching, testing and evaluation of quench mediums, water and water based quench mediums, oil quenching mediums, gas quenching, factors effecting cooling rate, quenching equipment, maintenance of quenching installations, quenching of induction heated parts, quenching of flame heated parts, safety precautions, martempering methods and mediums, operation and control in martempering and equipment and handling in martempering.


Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist
John D. Verhoeven

This book explains the metallurgy of steel and its heat treatment for non-metallurgists. It starts from simple concepts—beginning at the level of high-school chemistry classes and building to more complex concepts involved in heat treatment of most all types of steel as well as cast iron. It was inspired by the author when working with practicing bladesmiths for more than 15 years. Most chapters in the book contain a summary at the end. These summaries provide a short review of the contents of each chapter. This book is THE practical primer on steel metallurgy for those who heat, forge, or machine steel.


Tool Steel Simplified
Frank R. Palmer & George V. Luerssen

World's best selling handbook of modern practice for the man who makes tools and dies. This classic text presents detailed topics covering heat-treating methods and equipment; physical characteristics of tool steel; selecting the right tool steel for each kind of tool; properties, heat treatment, and testing of tool steel; hot acid etch test; spark testing; timbre and hardenability tests; furnace atmosphere; quenching and tempering; troubleshooting; etc. 535 pgs. Illustrated.

Contemporary Knives

An Edge in the Kitchen
Chad Ward
ISBN: 978-0-06-118848-0

An Edge in the Kitchen is the solution – an intelligent and delightful debunking of the mysteries of kitchen knives, once and for all. If you can stack blocks you can cut restaurant quality diced vegetables. If you can fold a paper airplane you can sharpen your knives better than many professionals. If you are willing to be a little adventurous you can find modern kitchen knives that outperform anything ever produced. Veteran cook Chad Ward provides an in-depth guide the most important tool in the kitchen, including choosing the best kitchen knives in your price range, practical tutorials on knife skills, a step-by-step section on sharpening, and more-all illustrated with beautiful photographs throughout. Along the way you will discover what a cow sword is, and why you might want one; why chefs are abandoning their heavy German knives in droves; and why the Claw and the Pinch, strange as they may sound, are in fact the best way to make precision vegetable cuts with speed and style. An Edge in the Kitchen is the one-and-only guide to the most important tool in the kitchen.

Messerklingen und Stahl
Roman Landes
ISBN: 978-3-938711-04-0

A ground breaking work in modern applications of steel for knife edges supported by almost a century of studies on that specific topic. Thus far it is only in German.

After one read through those look into patent information, peer reviewed scientific articles in journals such as Metallurgical and Materials Transactions,
Journal of Alloys and Compounds, Materials Science and Engineering and International Journal of Powder Metallurgy.

After all of that you realise what is hype, what is truth and you get to a point as P_Meticulous described where you just dont give a damn where I am currently as well.
 
TantoFan said:
Yeah. That is true. There's not a lot of info on google though, or at least not user opinions. I hoped to spark up some conversation on the topic. Google is probably the best answer though
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Oy. I wasn't talking about looking up steel info on Google. I was talking about looking up the source of the quote.

And thank you stvpourciau. :thumbup:
 
TantoFan said:
Anyone opposed to starting over with a new thread? This ones useless but I still want to know the original question!

Whaddaya say? Start from scratch? Sorry about this. Like I said. It went sour on me cuz I tried to do it all.
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Honestly? In my opinion? Don't start from scratch. Singularity nailed it. Leave it be. Any attempt at a new, definitive, omnibus thread on the subject will get linked back to this thread to put the information given in the new thread in context.

Again. I applaud the original effort, but it blew up. It might be best to not keep poking at it.

Though...you certainly seem intent on doing that. So, best of luck.
 
Ok I'm ending this thread then. Btw singularity35 I don't care who the OP is. By all means anyone please start the thread I hoped for.

Marthinus:

The thread quoted in the OP and just recently included a TON of information about steel alloys which is great. I was hoping to get some opinions and experience stories too so at this point yes, that is what I'm interested in. Like I said though ill wait for someone else to do it. The main reason I started this thread was to learn stuff myself but I wanted it to be presented in a way that everybody could benefit so thats why I didn't just ask a question.

Ill do alright with that thread by joe talmadge for now.

Thanks for setting me straight.
 
TantoFan said:
I have had many people ask recently what steel is best for them (not on this forum but elsewhere) and since it took me years to figure out even what I know now (which is not EVERYTHING. Don't worry I'm not claiming expertise) I figured I'd share all my collective knowledge and opinions here.

If I'm wrong, please just correct me. I hope to learn something if I am. If you have tested or used steels, feel Free to list opinions. I'm hoping if anyone ever needs help with steel choice this thread will provide EVERYTHING they need to know.

First of all I found this. It's another thread with some information but it didn't provide me with enough when I was looking a while ago, so here's my 2 cents WHICH IM LEAVING HERE ONLY SO PEOPLE KNOW WHY THE HECK PEOPLE RESPONDED THE WAY THEY DID. THE INTENT OF THIS THREAD HAS BEEN FOR EXPERTS TO PROVIDE INFO AND IT WAS A MISTAKE TO TRY TO DO THAT MYSLEF. PLEASE, PROVIDE YOUR INFO IF YOU WANT, BUT DONT TAKE THE FOLLOWING AS ALL FACTS.

THE OVERSIMPLIFIED BASICS:
at the basis of steel There are two basic categories. these categories DO NOT always dictate real world performance: stainless and non stainless. Generally, non stainless steels contain more of the element C or Carbon and this is what it means when you hear of "high carbon steels". However, I think I should warn you now that companies like Gerber will often try to fool you by stating the phrase "high carbon steel" on the box, but in reality it is "high carbon STAINLESS steel" which is not the same thing. It will have more carbon than most stainless steels but it is not truly "high carbon". Now that that's settled lets talk about the basic advantages of each category:
Stainless is more corrosion (rust) resistant than non stainless steels. This may make you wonder why anyone would ever want non-stainless. Here's why. Adding carbon (among other elements) to iron hardens it creating steel. The more carbon, the harder it is. This leads to better edge holding but more brittleness so it may break unless heat treated and tempered right. This is fixed with the hundreds of alloys we see today. The mixing of other metals along with carbon and iron in steel make it springier and more corrosion resistant but not as much as stainless. Stainless, having less carbon, will not hold an edge as well as high carbon, but can be sharpened easier as harder carbon steels take a while to wear away at compared to softer stainless steels. You could write a book on stainless vs non stainless steels but what you need to take away from it is the constant dilemma of knife makers and consumers: do I need the edge holding more than corrosion resistance or not? This is the basic question nagging me with every one of my purchases. That is the one question I can't answer for you as it depends purely on the situation. I can however provide a lot of information on each steel.

THE REAL WORLD TRUTH:
Though the generalizations above may be useful, in real life performance depends on these metals being added:
Ni Nickel - used primarily for corrosion resistance. Too much prevents hardening.
Mn Manganese - hardens the steel primarily and improves strength and wear resistance. Removes oxygen and molten metal.
Cr Chromium - Increases hardness strength, and toughness. Prevents wear and corrosion. More than 11% makes it "stainless", by causing an oxide coating to form.
Mo Molybdenum - Increases strength, hardness, hardenability, and toughness. Improves machinability and resistance to rust.
Ti Titanium - increases all around performance.
V Vanadium - Increases strength, wear resistance, and increases toughness. Improves corrosion resistance by contributing to the oxide coating. Expensive.
Ni Nitrogen - can be used to harden steel as replacement for C Carbon.

this is the chart I generally use. It provides a lot of useful information.
That may be all you need, but I will also list some of my opinions based on use and a few other important things:

one VERY important thing to remember is that no matter what quality steel is used, without the proper heat treatment or tempering the steel will not perform well. Take this into heavy consideration before buying.

Another piece of advice I'd give is to ALWAYS make sure the steel type is listed. If they don't list it, try to fond out what it is. If you can't find anything on it, the manufacturer has a good reason for this. Most of the time it is junk steel.

I'm going to let people respond before giving my opinions on individual alloys and will do is In another post.

PLEASE DONT ASK QUESTIONS ON THIS THREAD! IT IS NOT MEANT FOR THAT. IT IS FOR REFERENCE, NOT INDIVIDUAL HELP. THANKS!
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I think this summary is pretty good and good info source for newbies -BUT- I have one reservation: you need to highlight the fact that the information in the summary is more like guiding principles. :)
 
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