Digital Photography - Knife Photos,TOO GOOD?

I have a friend who is a professional commercial photographer. His specialty is product photography mostly for advertising. We talked once about the "enhancement" of product pictures, how your your burger and fries never really look quite like the one in the menu picture. He laughed and explained that food is specifically exempt, but for most products, there are laws that limit "enhancing" the product with photo editing. For example, if photographing jewelry, you can not legally add a sparkle to a diamond; it has to sparkle on its own. You can do whatever you want to to get it to sparkle, multiple light sources etc., but you can't alter the actual item (substitute a higher-grade diamond, for example) and you can't doctor the picture.

Good post Gollnick, and I'm aware there are truth in advertising laws that govern retailers and advertising firms, however I've observed many times my wife and/or three dauthers complaining upon examining clothes purchased from catalogs and stating that the colors are not as bright or the print/pattern is not as sharp as depicted in the AD photograph.

And as I have stated; I know VERY little about taking a photo or the equipment/editing software, but I have a good eye as to what I'm seeing.
IMO, this issues is only going to grow as technology improves.

I think there is a whole world of difference between "fixing flaws in a knife" by means of digital editing and simply making the photo look its best. It's their book and their rules and they can do as they please, but exclusing ALL photoshopped pictures will amount to excluding some of the BEST knife pictures out there. Oh well, Darom has what - 4 books out now?

Roger

Roger, I agree with you 100%. And nowhere here have I insinuated that knife photographer's are "fixing flaws or adding to or taking out photo elements to make them appear something they are not, but just using modern technology to push light, color and sharpness to the limits of the technology which sometimes artificially enhances the knife.
 
Some photos IMO do not represent the knife accurately. Not that the knife and the knife photo are not both beautiful. I have one piece where the ivory in the photo is not the same color as the actual ivory on the knife. Not even close.

Interestingly, it might be because the picture has *not* been manipulated. If you just take a shot and choose not to correct for the color of the light, your picture will take a different color. Our brains do that automatically.

For example, here is a knife sold by Garry Levine:
http://www.levineknives.com/m.pl/maker.htm?296

Having not seen the knife, I can't say for sure, but this picture looks like it's been taken under incandescence bulbs and left uncorrected for light color. Therefore the whole knife has taken a warmer tone. This can be problematic given the ivory inlay, which are not going to have as rich a color as appears in the pic. You can see how the same situation would also create a problem with stag or gold lip pearl...
 
I have seen pictures on dealers sites that "enhance" the appearance of knives. If the knife looks better in a picture than it does in your hand, and you try to sell it based on that picture, that is unethical.

Johnny
 
I have seen pictures on dealers sites that "enhance" the appearance of knives. If the knife looks better in a picture than it does in your hand, and you try to sell it based on that picture, that is unethical.

Johnny

It is always best to handle the knife, if possible. Plus, this happens in the reverse. I was at Don Hanson's shop yesterday and saw the recent gent folder that is on his site. His photograph is good. But if you are not familiar with black lip pearl, the camera lens and light pick up the green and pink underlying hues and until you see it in person, you may not understand how well premium black lip pearl and damascus go hand-in-hand. The photo Don posted looks good, the folder in hand looks awesome.
Ivory examples mentioned in this thread are good examples, too.
So, buying from just images can work either way for the buyer.


- Joe
 
fascinating discussion....

I am, of course, very interested....being both a knifemaker and a somewhat-better-than-average-photographer.



Here's another thought to throw into the pile....some knives lend themselves to photography better than others, regardless of setup. Just like some people are naturally photogenic and need little editing...while others need a lot of work. (Flaws or not...shape/size/etc.)

Knives made of materials that have both bright whites and dark darks are difficult to "capture". As are knives that are "all-bright" or "all-dark".


And consider this:

A knife is going to look different under different lighting conditions. Outdoors, indoors, inspection light, fluorescent, etc.




There have been a few "must see it in hand" comments....with which I agree...but add this caveat: lighting at knife shows can be very poor...and can wash-out the nicer materials which would look better otherwise. So, it's no guarantee.


Also, many people buy a knife for collecting or future resale...and they (naturally) want a better picture than they might be able to take themselves. Maybe even just for braggin' rights.



Lots to think about!

Great thread! :thumbup:
 
Please do keep in mind when you compare this proposed book with Dr. Darom's books are targetted at knife collectors. Lark's new book is targetted at a much broader art community. Dr. Darom's books are wonderful. I have signed copies of all of them. But, I'm more excited about this Lark book because of the market its going to reach. It's going to introduce the knife as art to people who have never heard of such a thing. This is part of what I call "mainstreaming the knife." It's about getting a broader class of people to think about knives as something other than evil tools of violence and to think of them as possibly objects of art and beauty, as object of art that have a place in life. This used to be true. Gentlemen used to carry elegant pocket knives with beautiful decorative materials and so forth. Today, a guy that wants to add a little flair to his kit gets his ears pierced and dangles earings. Women also often had an elegant knife in their purse. Somewhere along the way, we lost that concept and allowed knives to be demonized. I want to go back and re-establish in society in general -- not just within the knife community -- the concept of a knife as something that's appropriate to carry and display. A book like this, marketed to a broader audience, can help accomplish that. So, I hope that people will be very supportive of this effort.

I can wholeheartedly endorse all of the above.

My comparison to Darom's books was to highlight his inclusion of some truly spectacular knife photographs, a good many of which have been digitally edited, as contrasted with this publisher's clear contempt for that process. Simly stated, the inclusion of the best quality knife photographs will likely best achieve the laudable goals you have described. Rigid adherence to some lofty notions purity in the photographic process will likely not.

Roger
 
A knife is going to look different under different lighting conditions. Outdoors, indoors, inspection light, fluorescent, etc.

Shooting digital makes it very easy to correct that and neutralize the color cast given by different lights. For that, all you need is a "neutral grey card", a common photo accessory, and to shoot your photo twice under the same conditions, with and without the grey card. Then you can open your pictures in Photoshop or some other software, point the software to the grey card, the software will analyze any color cast there's on the card (which it knows should have 0 color cast), and correct all your pics. This takes but a few seconds in digital, and is very objective (whereas it would be very hard if not impossible to correct in film). I believe you need to shoot RAW to be able to do that, I'm not sure it works in JPEG mode.
 
... as contrasted with this publisher's clear contempt for that process.

If you will take the time to read their instructions, Lark Books does not express an "clear contempt" for digital editting. In fact, they ask submitters to suggest to them what edits to make. Clearly, they will be using digital editting. But they want to do that themselves so that they can control it and can know that the knife has not been photoshop-embelished. I think that that's a laudable goal.

By the way, I don't think that Dr. Darom has "photoshop-embelished" the knives in his books either. I have seen several of the knives in his book in person and they are as beautiful in person as they are in the pictures





I often see in for-sale posts or on e-bay and the like the phrase, "The picture doesn't do it justice." In that case, take another picture!

Consider, for example, the three-dimensional nature of a hollow-ground blade. it doesn't "read" well in a flat picture. The depth of a hollow grind is actually not that great. If you're using 1/4" stock (a very chunky blade indeed), the most you can get is 1/8" of depth. But most knives use stock that is closer to 1/8", so the maximum depth of the hollow grind is 1/16". If the camera is twelve inches from the knife when the picture is taken, then you're trying to show a depth variation of 1/192th of the total depth of the picture. It's even worse on a hollow-ground blade because that depth step doesn't happen sharply; it's not like photographing a staircase where there are sharp edges that read well. The uniform color of the blade further hides the depth of the grind. And the finishes we often use, brushed or bead-blasted are the worst for this, further hide the depth.

You've probably experienced this yourself, seeing a knife on a table and then picking it up and realizing that it's hollow-ground. You didn't see that in the flat image. As you pick a knife up, as you just move your eyes in your eye sockets, you're changing the angle you look at the knife from. The human brain has an amazing ability to take hundreds of images of an object seen from hundreds of angles achieved by moving the object, moving your eyes, moving your head, and moving your body, and combining them into one three-dimensional representation of the object in your head. Keep in mind, also, that you have two eyes and see in stereo. T

One of the best examples of this as Coop pointed out, and one of the most vexing materials to photograph, is mother of pearl (all shell materials). When we handle it, without thinking, we move it back and forth in the light and we say, "Wow! What a great piece of pearl. It's got reds and greens and blues and pinks!" And then we take the picture and it just looks white or maybe you can see a little pink or blue. Has Kodak deliberately formulated the film or Nikon deliberately rigged the software to loose the color in MOP? No. The piece does have all of those colors in, but not all at once from any one angle. Our amazing brain puts a hundred images from a hundred angles together and forms the mental model of the piece with all those colors in it. But the camera can only capture one angle at a time. And the angle that optimizes the presentation of the rest of the knife is always the angle from which the MOP is lifeless.

To capture all of the hundreds of pictures that your brain uses to form its 3D model in a single flat picture is a challenge that photographers have fought with since the invention of photography. The ability to overcome the limitations of the media and imbue the picture with a sense of the actual object, to get the picture to "do the object justice," is what separates a photographer from a guy with a camera.

My solution, very often, is not to try at all but to, instead, offer multiple pictures of the same knife.
 
...some knives lend themselves to photography better than others, regardless of setup. Just like some people are naturally photogenic and need little editing...while others need a lot of work. (Flaws or not...shape/size/etc.)

Take a look here
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=6909

With enough special effects and photo editting, a woman who most of us would describe as not overly photogenic can become a billboard model.
 
Take a look here
http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat4.asp?id=6909

With enough special effects and photo editting, a woman who most of us would describe as not overly photogenic can become a billboard model.

Several issues here. One, this is a movie, a promotional movie at that, and one that is not completely ethical IMHO (AFAIK, Dove doesn't promote its soaps using ugly or even ordinary women, so this whole campaign is fake).

Second, there are no softwares that allow that level of manipulation this easily. Sure, with enough time and enough computing power, that can be done, but not by spending 2 hours on Photoshop - not in a way that won't be seen clearly when printed on high quality paper.

Third, if someone is willing to go to that extent to actually modify their picture, what prevents them from doing that in a digital file and then print it as a slide, or whatever other "hard" format requested by the buck publishers?
 
Hi Chuck (Gollnick),

On your informative post just above we are in complete agreement. I often say that looking at peal or shimmering damascus is a motion picture. We can only take a single snapshot frame of that with an image.

Good points being made here. I am listening as I am editing my Guild Photos.

I just spent an HOUR redoing an image for a maker who, after seeing my proof, wanted much more contrast and distinction on an area and wished for me to change it so that it looked like it does in real life...! :thumbup: Much happier now. :)

My Canon EOS-5D with a 50mm fixed lens and a light tent did not do it 'justice'. Photoshop did.

Coop
 
My Canon EOS-5D with a 50mm fixed lens and a light tent did not do it 'justice'.

Try ditching the light tent. I use mine for simple shots. They're quick. It can take me a half hour of futzing around with direct lights to get what I want, but I'd rather spend a half-hour of that than a hour in photoshop.

I came to this conclusion after reading several seventies-era books (thank you Powells Used Books Store) on studio still-life photography for industrial and ad-shot photographers. I was surprised that they don't use light tents. So, I decided to experiment without myself.

After reading these books, I've come to the conclusion that Photoshop can make you lazy. In one of the articles, the client is an airline that has just purchased a fleet of brand new planes and whats to communicate that to the public. The photographer's commission is to photograph a champagne bottle being broken "ship-christening-style" on the nose of an airplane. The airline wanted a very explosive, very exuberant picture that would be very eye-catching and very visually exciting. Today, that could just be computer-generated, no need to even take a picture. But, back in the early 70s, they had to actually take the picture.

They couldn't actually do it because any photo close up enough to allow you identify the champagne bottle would be to close to identify the airplane. So, a scaled-down model of an airplane nose with the airline's logo, etc. had to be build. After smashing several cases of expensive champagne on the model, they found that when a champagne bottle smashes like that in real life, it just doesn't look like we think it should look. It just doesn't have an exuberant, explosive, exciting look to it.

This is probably why when ships are christened, the bottle is traditionally thrown by a good-looking woman in the hopes that all eyes will be on her. In truth, at a ship's christening, we don't see the bottle break up close. We see it swing, we see it break, we hear the sound and our mind fills in this image of a wonderful, exciting, exuberant explosion.

The solution was to carefully break a champagne bottle into the pieces they wanted with exciting, interesting angles and so forth, glue each piece to a metal rod, attach each rod to their model airplane nose, and artfully position the pieces and the rods so that no rod could be seen on the picture (remember, it only has to look good from one angle). Then, they added tubes hooked to a hand pump off camera. An assistant squeezed the hand pump sending water squirting out in carefully planned directions at the instant the photographer tripped the shutter. Add the proper lighting and it looked great!

And you already know this, but I'll mention it to everyone else: three minutes spent dusting the set will save you three hours in photoshop.
 
I often say that looking at peal or shimmering damascus is a motion picture. We can only take a single snapshot frame of that with an image.

Not only that, but there's an amazing amount of work done in the brain for a single still image! As a biomedical engineer, I'm constantly surprised by how insanely well our brains are at using contextual data to correct for lighting, color, perspective, and texture. Take a look at my favorite optical illusion:
greysquareopticalillusink3.jpg

The color of square A and square B are the same. Our brains automatically corrected for the shadow. Don't believe me? Print it out or load it in Photoshop.
 
If you will take the time to read their instructions, Lark Books does not express an "clear contempt" for digital editting.

I already had (thanks for the helpful suggestion). Re-reading that tedious list did nothing to alter my opinion.

I don't think there was much ambiguity in my original point:

It's their book and their rules and they can do as they please, but excluding ALL photoshopped pictures will amount to excluding some of the BEST knife pictures out there.

And I don't think that there is much ambiguity in their requirements:

"Submit only the highest-quality images. Originals are always preferable, but duplicates are acceptable. Do not send digital images unless you carefully follow the parameters in the special note below...

...We strongly prefer slides and transparencies. To this date, scanning film and adjusting color through conventional processes still yields the most reliable print quality...

Do not manipulate or "correct" the images: DO NOT "PHOTOSHOP."

If image needs alteration, write instructions on print-out and we will determine whether alterations should be made by our pre-press technicians."

Roger
 
Gollnick,
This image is featured in the gallery on your Web site:

orig.jpg


This is your image after some tweaking in Photshop CS2:

orig.jpg


Using your logic, one of these is a lie... but which one? You said, "Long ago, I decided to edit minimally. I decided to concentrate on taking the picture right in the first place." I take that to mean you never learned to effectively use photo editing software. That's unfortunate. The irony is that gaining proficiency in the use of a photo editing program helps teach one how to 'get it right in the first place' right out of the camera.

Quoting from the June, 2007 issue of SHUTTERBUG magazine (a venerable photography periodical that has resisted changing its name to something containing the word digital) editor George Schaub says in his Editor's Notes titled Digital Image Processing, "...when it comes to the basics of photography - contrast, color, and tonal control - I have to say that I have never before experienced such a degree of control over every aspect of my images. And that's being able to compare 20 solid years of darkroom work to how I work my images today."

I respect the variety of opinions expressed in this and the other related thread on this topic. I hope my two cents worth adds something to the discussion.

As regards the Lark Books requirements for photo submissions (thanks for the link, RogerP), this is nothing new and has nothing to do with ethics and honesty. Rather, it has everything to do with what equipment they use in preparing images for press AND what their printer needs from them to optimize the actual printing and color matching. Having also been asked to provide images for use in the book, I understand their request and will have no problem complying.

Lark Books makes one statement that is (unintentionally, I'm sure) misleading: "We strongly prefer slides and transparencies. To this date, scanning film and adjusting color through conventional processes still yields the most reliable print quality." This is not true industry-wide, but may be true as regards their particular equipment/software and/or the equipment/software used by their printer.

BTW - Kodak stopped making film last year.
 
Yep, found them after typing this. Their instructions seem to make sense to me. It looks like they ask submissions from the artists and not the collectors, which is going to seriously restrict their universe (how many knives does a given maker have at any point in time?).
 
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