Digital Photography - Knife Photos,TOO GOOD?

What do you mean?

Well kind of kidding but, all my professionally photographed knives (most all of my collection) have been photo-shopped therefore undesirable to Lark.
Only my knives that I photographed are un-edited or un-enhanced, therefore suitable for submission.
 
Got it. The photographers might have the original RAW files though. That's standard operating procedure in photography if I'm not mistaken.
 
I think you guys might have to ask the photographer to (assuming they still have the files) submit (or send to you so you can submit) unprocessed and unmodified (not cropped or anything) original files... but not in RAW format. They don't want RAW files - they want TIFF files (converted by the photographer from RAW to TIFF).

I think this will all work out. Lark Books is simply trying to do the best job they can. I'm sure they've gotten behind the eight ball enough in the past with less than the best images from well-meaning folks so that they've learned the hard way.

My understanding is that David Darom went through the same learning process and by the time he got around to his 4th book he had placed some significant restrictions on the gear that could be used to produce images for his book. No author/editor/publisher wants to waste time trying to 'fix' images. They've got enough headaches already, I'm sure.
 
Hello everyone,

As there has been some mentioning of the digital images in my four
books on modern custom knives, I think that hearing it from "the horses
mouth" would be best to clarify some of the issues...

I take the high quality RAW files of individual knives shot with 39 MP
PhaseOne digital backs, put several such images together into one
illustration and bring them to as close as I can to what they look like
in real life. I am very particular about having no unnatural color casts
on steel parts and try to have the visual brightness and contrast of all the
knives in one illustration seem as if they were all shot in one exposure.
This illustration is supposed to exhibit art pieces at their best.

But I do not try to make the knives look better than they would look when
inspected under good illumination. I try my best to document them
as they could have been seen exhibited in a well iluminated glass case...

Creating the composition for one full page illustration in my books,
removing the knives from their original background, bringing life into the
knives displayed on that page and then fixing them onto the background
with carefully created shadow layers, can, at times, take several hours
per page.

Even the best photography of any three dimentional objects, shot in a
cleverly illuminated setup will have tiny highlight and shadow flaws.
Digital photography, lucky for us all, allows us to deal with with these small
imperfections in the images, creating truly enjoyable (mouthwatering?)
life like images.

Here is one such example where I chose five knives for one full page
illustration, after searching through hundreds of images.
I put them together, removed the original backgrounds, color corrected
them individually, set them on the page in a pleasing way then created the
shadows on different layers to make the knives look realistically diplayed
together. I am sure that all the knives shown on this page from the
forthcoming book "Edmund Davidson, The Art of the Integral Knife"
look very much like the original pieces....

I doubt very much if I could have created this page as such a "clean"
display if I had to use a high quality picture from film.... The posibility
of shooting such a setup in one shot on film and getting a similar result
is, believe me, mind blowing.
I have 40 years experience as a professional photographer
and I thank god that I lived to see and work with digital
photography and have learnt the various options to deal with it...


The gift of digital photography and knowing how to deal with it correctly
cannot be ignored any more. Going back to film and slide material at
this point in time seems strange especially if such media is sent in by
non-professional photographers......


I wish LarkBooks all the luck with their production as any such venture
to display to the world the art of custom knifemaking is always a
true blessing.

David (ddd)

picture.JPG
 
They don't want RAW files - they want TIFF files (converted by the photographer from RAW to TIFF).

I think they're fine with RAW:
"TIFF files are preferred. RAW files (the camera's native format) are also a high quality option."

In any case, it's not that hard to convert.

ddd said:
...shot with 39 MP PhaseOne digital backs...

Ouch - not everyone's digital camera. :cool:
 
Joss - Thanks. I stand corrected.

Dr. Darom - Thank you for sharing your views on this subject.

The best digital cameras (sensors, actually) have now exceeded the capacity of films in every objective, measurable category. That is not to say film is 'dead' since film is no more or less dead than vinyl records or carburetors.

The following quote is front page news on the http://www.dpreview.com site:
"According to data from CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association) digital camera shipments by CIPA members (the majority of digital camera manufacturers) are up 27% overall in the first half of this year compared to the same period last year. The largest growth coming from DSLRs, a total of 3.5 million units, up some 75% compared to the first half of last year."
 
Gollnick,
This image is featured in the gallery on your Web site:

That picture is on my site, yes. But, like many of the pictures on my site, it was submitted by a reader. I didn't take it.




Now, let's talk about what happens when you adjust for a color cast in Photoshop.

Each pixel in a digital picture is a vector of three numbers which represent how much red, how much green, and how much blue make up that pixel. All colors of the rainbow can be made by mixing red, green, and blue. Most "better" "consumer" digital cameras have eight bits for each of those three numbers for each pixel. "Prosumer" gear gets up to ten or twelve bits. High-end pro gear like the PhaseOne backs that Dr. Darom is fortunate enough to use get up to 16 bits. But let's talk eight bits for a moment because that's what most of us probably have. An eight bit number can represent 256 levels. Think of the gas guage in your car. How many marks does it have between full and empty? An eight-bit number can represent 256 levels between full and empty. So, your camera can represent 256 levels between black and red, 256 levels between black and green, and 256 levels between black and blue. Put the three channels, red, green, and blue, together and you can represent 16,777,216 colors. That's a lot of colors. But you need that many because detail in pictures is -- what? -- variation in color. If you want the appearance of fine detail, then you've got to have lots of colors. If you want the appearance of fine focus in a color image, then you've got to have lots of colors.

So, let's say that I take a picture under poor light -- let's use old-fashioned florescent lights -- and the light is 25% too green. How does Photoshop fix that? Basically, it knocks 25% off the green value of every pixel.* But, because these are fix-point numbers, eight bits, that means we can no longer represent 256 levels of green. We can only represent 192 levels of green. And that means we can no longer represent 16,777,216 colors but only 12,582,912. That's still a lot of colors, but it's less than we had and that means that we will loose fine detail and apparent focus.

Let's say that I didn't use enough light and so the picture is a bit dark? Let's say that it's 25% dark. How does Photoshop fix that? It adds a fixed amount to each channel of each pixel.* In the case of a 25% increase to 8-bit fixed-point numbers, that means adding 64 to each channel of each pixel. But that essentially removes 64 values of variability from each channel. And that reduces the number of colors we can have in the picture to just 7,077,888, less than half of what we started with. And that, again, reduces fine detail and apparent focus.

If you did both of these operations to the same picture, then there'd only be 4,718,592 possible colors just a over a quarter of what we started with.

The old adage about free lunches holds very true.

There's an old proverb that says, "If clear water flows from the spring, then there is no need to filter it downstream."

You might say, "Well my camera has a feature that let's me adjust white balance." The way that control works is it moves the offset voltage going into the amplifiers that are in each channel, red, green, and blue, between the CCD and the Analog-to-digital converter. What comes out of the CCD for each pixel is three voltages. One voltage represents the level of red, one the level green, and one the level of blue. Those small voltages need to be amplified before going into the A/D converter which converts them into digital values. By moving the offsets on those amplifiers, you can compensate for poor whitepoint. But the free lunch concept bites us again. If you move those offsets to much, you can cause the amplifier to clip. That will also reduce your effective color depth, but it does something worse than that: when clipped signals get processed through such algorithms as compression and decompression, they mathematically introduce noise into the signal.

What happens in your camera when you try to compensate for low light by turning up the "ASA" setting? You increase the gain of those amplifiers. But the higher the gain of an amplifier, the more noise it adds to the signal.

So, the very best thing you can do is start with good light so that you don't have to compensate by moving the offsets on those amplifiers, use a lot of light so that you can keep the gain on those amplifiers low, do not compress the image, and do as little adjustment of it in Photoshop as you absolutely can.

There's another old adage: every action has an opposite and equal reaction. When you use a tool like Photoshop, every image-altering action you make has a reaction; every good comes with some bad. To use tools like Photoshop well, you have to understand what the reaction to every action is. I sometimes correct colors in Photoshop. But I know when I do that that I'm reducing color depth. If it's just a little change, then I may decide to take that tradeoff, especially when targetting the web where compression will eat into your color depth anyway. But I make that decision aware of what the tradeoff is.

A highly knowledgable pro like Dr. Darom knows all of this much, much better than I do and can make those tradeoffs even better than I can.

And that's part of what Lark is concerned about. They do not say that they are for some reason philosophically opposed to digital editting. No. They say that they're gonna edit the pictures. They just want their pro to do it and not some amateur. And they want someone who has done this targetting high-quality printed media.




* The actual algorithms used in better editting software such as Adobe Photoshop are slightly more sophisticated than this, but the principle is the same and the effect, that of reducing color depth, while reduced in magnitude some by better algorithms, is the same.
 
Not sure if we will get consensus on any of the questions or issues raised by this thread, however I think we will all go away with more knowledge and a better understanding of photography. :thumbup:
 
I read most of this thread, but not the last three or four, so forgive me if this point has already been made. Before the digital camera came into being, great photographers - and not so great ones - were manipulating images with their manual camera settings, filters, lighting, etc, you name it. So I kinda think the argument made by Lark that digital could mean an image has been manipulated is absolutely DUMB. You can always scan a non-digital image, make a negative, come up with a slide, so gimme a break.
 
Thanks for that detailed explanation, Chuck. I learned from it. :thumbup:

Coop
 
The book publisher is blowing smoke up your a$$. They want slides so they can edit on a light table and then scan every image in to the size and resolution they end up needing.

The problem with getting digital files from non-professionals is that most people don't know jack about lithography for offset printing or pre-press technology. And why should they, right? It is complicated. The publisher would end up with over sharpened cell phone camera pics and all manner of crap that they couldn't use anyway. And to boot, in laying out the book it's easier for the editors to sort the images on the light table rather than trying to prnt them out etc etc.

Best bet for those wanting to submit: have a 35mm slide output from your digital file. Tip: FIRST talk to the service house who will output the file and get their EXACT data for the digital file you need to give them to get a proper 35mm slide made from it.

Forgot to mention: Back in the Stone Age when I was doing advertising in NYC, we had guys who retouched large format transparencies... each dust spot cost a good deal of cash, so the photograpers worked in white gloves with little brushes removing every spot from the product before taking the shot... now with Photoshop: bang! no more dust!
 
Now, let's talk about what happens when you adjust for a color cast in Photoshop.
*
*
I sometimes correct colors in Photoshop. But I know when I do that that I'm reducing color depth.

Chuck - Your points about light and color are right on and I agree. And, I can see that there is a big difference between your photos and most of the ones made by others but posted on your site. You are quite accomplished and I've always liked your photos. I apologize if I came off as critical in my post below. I can get carried away in my enthusiasm for all things photographic some times. :o

For me at least, eliminating color casts in non-damascus, non-blued blades isn't the same thing as color correction. When doing color correction in an image these days, I don't make global adjustments for just the reasons you explain. Instead, I use layer masks, selective colors, pen and lasso selections and brushes of different types depending on the situation so as to limit pixel alteration to just the essential areas of the photo.

For the example below (posted by a reader on your Web site) I did what I usually do to eliminate blade color casts - I used the pen tool to create a 'path' around the left half of the blade where the color casts are, converted it to a selection and then hit desaturate thus eliminating all color from that half of the blade.

I'm either too proud or too polite to actually ask ddd or Coop to say how they process their images, but after hours and hours of studying their images (and reading books, magazines and photography forums) it finally occurred to me that maybe (I don't know for sure), just maybe they were desaturating the shiny steel parts on the knife.

I suppose I could check using the color dropper/picker tools in PS but it's pretty obvious by looking (ddd's picture below is a perfect example) that all the blades etc. have been desaturated and brightened. In ddd's books it also appears that very often highlights have been accentuated or even added (?highlight brush in PS). I'm not being critical or negative regarding such techniques. I like the idea and I like the results.

Certainly, in a book or magazine article, where consistency of appearance among the images is important to the overall visual theme - it just has to be done, no way around it - especially when bringing together images from different photographers who use different gear, lighting etc.

I found over the past 4 years or so that I've gotten better at minimizing color casts and getting good color balance overall right out of the camera. (I now use a grey card to set a custom WB for each knife/background scene - something I was very resistant to doing in the past but finally learned to appreciate - just makes for less work later on). But for a long time it was a great mystery for me, and a huge source of frustration.

Different opinions about post-processing naturally exist and I agree it is important to not mislead people. My feeling is that if the photograph is conceived by the photographer to be artful, anything goes. Photographs of knives for sale should not involve extensive correction of defects or evidence of use, though I have no objection to fixing a spot here or there and eliminating offending reflections and/or shadows.

I have a knife book project in the works as we speak and I've decided to make a blanket statement up front that my photographs should not be used as a substitute for viewing the knife in person. To me it seems un-necessary to have to say that. There are very few things of import that I would buy sight un-seen and I assume other people are smart enough to figure that out on their own. But... alas, the world if full of weirdness and many people seem ready to blame others for their disappointments in life.

Cheers!

PS: I would have sent this to you as an e-mail but who knows, maybe someone will stumble upon this thread and find something of use here.
 
I found over the past 4 years or so that I've gotten better at minimizing color casts and getting good color balance overall right out of the camera. (I now use a grey card to set a custom WB for each knife/background scene - something I was very resistant to doing in the past but finally learned to appreciate - just makes for less work later on). But for a long time it was a great mystery for me, and a huge source of frustration.

Well said.

I have found that good lighting and proper white balancing takes care of 90% of my post-processing work. Sometimes, I literally crop, resize, smart sharpen and "save for web"....hardly any PP at all.
 
Also....

Great explanation Chuck.



Would just like to add that for those of us that can shoot in RAW and edit using Adobe Bridge (or similar)...we save a lot of that color depth and detail.

We are doing manually what most jpg-output cameras do automatically when they format and compress images using their own algorithms (and, subsequently, losing image detail).
 
I want to talk a bit about one more thing because I'm reminded of it.

Your camera records the image by precharging a charge-coupled-device, CCD. You can think of one cell of a CCD as being like a bathroom sink only instead of water, it holds electrical charge. If you close the stopper and then put water in your sink, how long will the water stay there? Most sink stopers don't close perfectly and the water slowly leaks out. It's good enough for shaving, but it's not perfect. CCDs cells are like that too. If you put charge in them, it slowly leaks out. So, if you want it to stay full, you have to keep constantly adding more charge. When you expose a CCD cell to light, the rate at which the charge leaks off becomes much greater. The more light that hits the CCD cell either because it's brighter light or because the exposure is for a longer time, the more charge will leak off. Your camera's CCD has a lot (millions, probably) of cells.

When you press the "shutter release", the camera first charges all the cells so that all of the cells are at or nearly fully charged. Then, it stops the charging process and opens the shutter to expose the CCD to the focused image light. It then closes the shutter and measures the amount of charge left in each CCD cell. That measure is done by measuring the cell's voltage. That measurement is made by an Analog-to-Digital converter also known as an ADC.

The voltage on a CCD cell is very small, so it has to be amplified before it can be read by the ADC. So, there's an amplifier between the CCD and the ADC.

If you look in the specifications for your camera, you can find the width of the ADC which is the number of bits it produces per conversion. This is the number of steps between zero a full.

If you have 8-bit ADCs, then you have 256 steps between zero and full.

If you have 10-bit ADCs, then you have 1024 steps between zero and full.

Etc.

But this isn't the whole story. We live in a fallen creation where nothing is perfect. The amplifier circuitry between the CCD and the ADC is not perfect. It introduces some noise. If it introduces a half-count worth of noise, then the lowest bit of the ADC becomes meaningless. If you started with an eight-bit converter, you're now down to seven effective bits. If the noise exceeds one count, then the second bit of the ADC becomes meaningless too. If you started with an eight-bit converter, you now have six effective bits. To render the third bit useless, noise has to exceed two counts. And to knock out the fourth bit, it's got to exceed four counts, etc.

So, if just a little bit of noise gets in there, suddenly an eight-bit converter is a six bit converter. A six-bit converter only has 64 steps between zero and full-scale. A camera with three true-eight-bit converters can resolve 16,777,216 colors. But, if those converters are only giving six effective bits, then the number of possible colors falls to 262,144 with resulting huge losses of detail and perceived focus. And that's before we go into Photoshop and start loosing depth there. And that's before we do the color-space convertions necessary to print the picture and loose more depth there.

One way you can lower noise in a circuit is to run more current through it, lower the impedances. But digital cameras are usually battery operated and manufacturers like to brag about battery life. So, if you're buying a camera for studio work, forget about battery life.

Another way you can lower noise is to use more expensive parts and usually more of them. This is one reason why cameras come in such a wide range of prices and why bargain hunting isn't necessarily a good idea. BTW, ADCs are pretty power-hungry too. But, they can also introduce analog noise. Again, when the ADC makers are targetting battery-operated products, one of things they try to do is reduce power consumption. But that generally raises noise.

Another way around this problem would be to just buy a wider ADC and just throw away the least-significant bits. But, keep in mind that the amount of noise it takes to render a bit useless is measured in steps. Zero remains zero and full remains full. A wider ADC has more steps between zero and full and that makes each step smaller which means it takes less noise to make a step. So, the wider your ADC is, the more you have to worry about noise.

And the point of all of this is that just because camera A has eight bit ADCs and camera B has 10 bit ADCs does not make B the better camera. If A has less than one-half count of noise, then A gets to count all eight of its bits. If B has two steps-worth of noise, then it will only be delivering seven meaningful bits and will actually end up with less color depth. A sixteen bit ADC such as Dr. Darom uses has to have wonderfully-pristine amplifiers in front of it which runs the cost up even further; they also use big batteries and drain them quickly.

The higher an amplifier's gain, the more noise it introduces. If your camera has multiple "ASA" settings, always use the lowest one you can get away with in order to minimize the amplifier gain which minimizes the noise it introduces and maximizes your effective color depth. Also, when you see camera manufacturers bragging about their high ASA numbers, know that if you use those higher settings, you will loose color depth.
 
Buddy,

You say: ..."I'm either too proud or too polite to actually ask ddd or Coop
to say how they process their images"
....... You should try me (us?) as I
myself usually enjoy helping others improve their photographic end product.

There are times when I drag pictures in the forum to my desktop, color
and density correct them just for the fun of it, but find no direct way to
send them to the guy who posted them so that he might replace them
on his post.

My email can be found in the contact information in all my books on custom
knives, and you are welcome to visit another side of my personal life as a
scientist and nature photographer at:
www.david-darom.com

Truly understanding Color Management seems complicated but there are
several basic facts that should be understood especially if pictures are
meant to be used in print (and therefore converted from RGB into CMYK).

Just understanding the difference between two of the basic color profiles (spaces),
sRGB IEC1966-2.1 (usually the output of most digital cameras) and the
warmer colors of Adobe RGB (1998) and learning how intermingle between
them, will elevate the visual quality of most digital pictures...

Learning to use different gamma settings and using layer-mixes between
different gamma settings of different sections in a picture can truly help
creating great final results where sections in a picture are too light or too dark.

Learning the difference between assigning a color profile to a picture
and converting it to that profile is the basic concept for all the above...

Dealing properly with "curves" layers is the answer to most color correction
processes while leaving the original picture untouched as it remains one of the
layers in the final picture file.........
The advantage here is that while the picture is visually corrected, one can
still go back to the original shot without opening an additional file.

All this said does not mean that pictures cannot be corrected (more or less)
just playing around with various options in photoshop...:):)
It can be done better and easier in the professional way when understanding
the basic concepts of digital color profiles and color management!

All the above is found in every Photoshop.....

David (ddd)
 
If your camera has multiple "ASA" settings, always use the lowest one you can get away with in order to minimize the amplifier gain which minimizes the noise it introduces and maximizes your effective color depth. Also, when you see camera manufacturers bragging about their high ASA numbers, know that if you use those higher settings, you will loose color depth.


Actually, I recall reading an article posted on DPReview claiming that for the Canon 20D, ISO 200 was the optimal setting in terms of sharpness and resolution. Not sure if that's in contradiction with what you say wrt noise.
 
Actually, I recall reading an article posted on DPReview claiming that for the Canon 20D, ISO 200 was the optimal setting in terms of sharpness and resolution. Not sure if that's in contradiction with what you say wrt noise.

For static subjects lowest ISO seems to work best. The optimal settings you find in such reviews are ment for general picture taking situation, which might invlove a moving subject and no tripod.
 
Sorry to change the topic.. but on the matter of photoraphy this the latest picture I was experimenting with. It obviously has the Coop and maybe Erics influence. One day I hope to get my own style going but i'd almost rather stick to a basic layout like they do. This is all done on a small cannon sd800is pocket camera.. My lighting is pretty poor compared what I desired. They look real grainy and less focused when viewed up close.. But overall, I think its not so bad for a begginer. I like it actually.

Any thoughts, opinions, reccomendations, criticisms?? By the way, Coop.. youve always inspired me along the years so I wanted to to thank you for doing what you do and putting your heart into it. Doesnt get better then that. And keep enlightening us with your words and contribution.
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