Disagreements and Good Intentions

M

munk

Joined
Mar 22, 2002
Messages
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IN the past, many in this forum have not liked the political discussions.
Not all people like mention of religion.
Not all people like portraits of women scantily clothed, with resultant 'off color' jokes, on a family forum.
I imagine there are people who do not like insects, jokes, flood data, help data, charitable events; etc etc etc.
Do we talk of Hurricane Katrina and how the help was delivered or not? Is that political? War? Peace? Famous personalities and what they do? This OK?

We had a political thread where the worst came from those who objected to what it might do. The thread was locked because of the deliberate insulting provacation of a forumite. Most threads do not get locked or moved from Himilayan Imports. Bill did not do this very often, if at all. I won't either. I finally locked it because one poster was using ethnic slurs I did not wish repeated or responded to.

Do you want to have a forum where if a poster baits or blows it enough, he can stop the rest of you from decent discussion?

It is your forum. This is your place. You decide. Let's have an honest discussion of what you want here. Keep in mind, that one man's lunch is another man's Ox being gored. IF you limit one type, be prepared to limit all.

A forumite once attempted to rid HI forum of political discussion by creating constant controversy. This did not work. Rusty did not allow this to happen. I don't think it should happen either-


Frankly, I'm tired of the grief. If I or Hollow or Thomas Linton and others can't discuss current events because some of you don't like it, be prepared to have things you want discussed equally examined and/or removed. Half of you want the forum khuk only. Is the other half ready to give up the rest?

Is this what you want? Is there some compromise here?

Keep this in mind; through the years, and occasionaly spats, we have remained decent and friendly and our forum a good elevating place. Do any say our policy has not worked? A policy which includes sometimes 'disagreement' between forumites. You wish to change the Cantina today?

Your decision.


munk
 
I, for one, am glad the cantina has open discussion about all manner of things. Actually, khuk content all the time would bore the hell outta me. There are only so many times you can look at pictures of a khuk, or a khuk chopping wood, or old pictures of Gorkhas. Don't get me wrong. I love all of those things, but could you imagine 20 threads on the SAME thing?
Politics and religion are ALWAYS touchy subjects. Actually, the debates on this forum are very civil and thought provoking...imho, that is. No one stoops to name calling, but if someone is off on their facts they are called out and countered with data. I enjoy the conversations very much. Many of you remind me of just how average brained I am. That's a good thing. If i don't know something, then I can learn it.
I'm a low man on the totem pole around here. I'm not a craftsman. I'm not highly educated. I am just lucky to have a place with so many friends and like-minded (or like-minded enough;)) individuals in one place to talk with on a daily basis. The elders of this community, the mods, and those with much knowledge do a fantastic job of keeping this place clean and civil, as well as fun. I am at the will of the people on this issue. I figured that no political discussion could be any worse or heated than the election last year. We made it though that...sort of. Everything else should be a cake-walk, imho.
Anyway, it's up to you guys and gals. Lead on. I'll follow where ever. I'm not picky.

Jake
 
munk said:
Do you want to have a forum where if a poster baits or blows it enough, he can stop the rest of you from decent discussion?
Click to expand...

This is why locking threads is a horrible solution to inline trolling, it does exactly what the troller wants and thus he keeps it up again and again. What should be more functional is a posting ban. What I would do is put him on the universal ignore list, then people who want to can turn him back on. This is a pre-step before outright banning and thus can be used more liberally. It would also be nice if you could do forum specific ignores (so poster A is on the ignore list in the HI forum but not everywhere else) as certain people like to troll in certain places. I don't think the software can do this yet though.

-Cliff
 
Thats true, Cliff.
I see there is a thread now about Maoists in Nepal. That is political; is that OK?

With all earnestness, please bring all ideas to the table. If anyone has a way to make this place better, say so!



munk
 
I don't mind the Off-Topic posting. I like to hear how people are doing, what new non-khukuri things are out there, etc. But there is, afterall, a place designated for political discussion. And Whine & Cheese was created to siphon the ranting off the main forums....


It's widely known that Bill encouraged free discussion on this forum. What is not so widely known is that he really just tolerated most of it for our sake and took the bad with the good.

I, too, welcome open discussion and am willing to tolerate the bad with the good. My personal preference is to avoid those threads that might escalate and try to encourage (and give) positive contributions to everything else.
 
I've been a closet anarchist for some years now. My idea of a good debate is a bunch of people at the bar shouting over one another. I'm convinced that I made my point, you're convinced that you made your point, none of the other people shouting care much one way or the other and no one is going to remember what was said the next morning anyway. Perfect (if not rational) discussion.

This isn't a bar, though. It's the internet. I never could understand how someone could get worked up over words (any words) on the internet. It's a shade removed from reality. Who cares?

munk said:
It is your forum. This is your place. You decide.
Click to expand...

Not strictly true. It's Spark's forum. It's his place. We play by his rules or we find another playground. He's given us remarkable leeway in how we conduct ourselves here as compared to the other subforums. I can see the rules being enforced more strictly if we're not willing to show a little maturity in our fun and games.

Thread locking? Bleh. Have a supermod shift it to W&C and let everyone start screaming at one another in a free fire zone. It does the soul good.
 
The only political discussions I haven't liked was the ones that got me banned the one time ;) :mad: :thumbdn:

Seriously though if the majority doesn't like it I'm game not to do it but I enjoy it even though I usually represent the minority view :rolleyes:

I like Munk a lot and everybody here and as long as folks don't personally insult each other I'm game. I DIDN'T like it when I was called a "Communist Cub Scout" :p on another forum and when someone that disagreed with me printed out a picture of me, took it to a shooting range, and shot it full of holes and posted it. I though THAT was a little over the line :confused:
 
Munk, I love the off-topic aspect of this place. While I came for the khuks, and would sure as heck stay for them, my real attachment to this place is the people and the off-topic conversation. I come here and am engaged by articulate, thoughtful conversation. Flame wars are unbelievably rare. We are civil, and put forth thought in a decent, well-mannered way. And it's a forum. You can choose what to read and what not to read. When disagreement occurs, it harely ever becomes a problem. Instead, I feel we all benefit from such discussion. Through exposure to juxtaposed arguments, we can all learn something and examine our own viewpoint. And so much of the personal facet of this place would be lost if our topics were restricted.

I have never been to the Whine and Cheese forum, because I have no desire. I wouldn't know the people there, unless they are Cantinistas. I respect the people here and their opinions. Why should we be unable to discuss whatever in a civil manner?

Munk, thank you for bringing this to the front, but I pray that the forum doesn't decide to change things. I'm here because I love it as is, and that love comes from so much more than steel.

Nam


PS: Hollow, you must have really made an impression! That's some pretty amazing rage right there! :eek: :D

Which reminds me, in a strange way, of another great part about this place: the sense of humor. So far, I don't think anybody's shot anybody else's avatar here, right? ;) :p :)
 
hollowdweller said:
on another forum and when someone that disagreed with me printed out a picture of me, took it to a shooting range, and shot it full of holes and posted it. I though THAT was a little over the line :confused:
Click to expand...

HD, this the Cantina. A place of peace, and understanding, and khukuris...we print out your picture and tape it to the log we're going to chop up for our fire;)
Just kidding, of course. You're one of those learned people i was talking about. You sit across the aisle on a lot of things, but you and your points of view are valued very highly.

Jake
 
One of the things that makes it difficult is a lot of the folks who post here don't post anywhere else. So the only place you can discuss politics with them is here.

Also because of the large number of buddhists, ex and current hippies, military personell, bikers, naturalists, non US citizens, and members of other widely varying geographic, racial, religious and ethnic groups that make up the HI forum the discussions are a lot more 3 dimensional than some of the so called liberal VS conservative discussions in other forums :thumbup:
 
Steely_Gunz said:
HD, this the Cantina. A place of peace, and understanding, and khukuris...we print out your picture and tape it to the log we're going to chop up for our fire;)

Jake
Click to expand...

Now THAT one got me laughing! :D
 
It's up to the mods to set & police the limits
(openess to 'public' input appreciated).

No limits is not ok,
but a list of specific limits is no good either.

If someone is out of line,
mod--"burn the whole post".

Maybe replace it with a specific graphic;
like Couger Allen uses to move a thread.

Also,
Mark the thread title with something to indicate ?'controversy'
I like off topic threads
But some are further off than I care to venture.
Some threads I've avoided by mistake
because I mistook the title.


Monk and other mods--- Thanks



~
~~~~~~~~~
<:eek:> THEY call me 'Dean' :)-fYI-fWiW-iIRC-JMO-M2C-YMMV-TiA-YW-GL-HH-HBd-IBSCUtWS-theWotBGUaDUaDUaD
<> Noobee <> Tips <> Baha'i Prayers Links --A--T--H--D
 
The idea of a controvery warning is a good one. How about; OT-C in the header?
>>>>>>>>>>>

But the 'controversy' in the last political thread was made by persons warning or angry that the political thread might make someone angry. They proved their point by becoming the problem. A poster finally said 'nigger' which stopped the real dialogue other forumites were having. I locked the thread because there was no direction but down after that.

If someone shows up on the Cheesecake photo thread and baits everyone who is enjoying the thread, does that mean we don't get to see pictures of pretty girls any more because someone might be offended, and the baiting proved it?

Dean is right that a list of specific limits is no good. Either are no limits. I know some of you want all political discussion threads banned. We have a thread about the Maoists in Nepal today, and the relief efforts for Katrina weeks ago; these are political. You can't seperate this stuff.

Dan Koster said that Bill only 'tolerated' certain threads. I'm sure that's true. Bill tolerated us, and we tolerated Bill, and all tolerated each other.


munk
 
The reason things worked well under Bill Martino's leadership is because he infused the place with the rather a-typical ethos of HI. Why is HI set up as it is? Why are the prices what they are? etc. etc.

It's the same reason that things can work well now.

Sure, put "flame warning" symbols or notes in the thread titles, but let free speech and self-moderated civility be the rule here. We see it demonstrated every day by prominent Cantinistas, and by the principles Yangdu uses to run the business.

This place is a community. And like all communities, it depends on members to be self-moderating for it to become what it can. The great advantage of this place is that it isn't ONLY an internet forum. It's an internet forum created by folks who had very different spiritual and material goals than the average. They're goals that, by coming here, we all access and validate.

So keep the potential thread topics broad, and keep on remembering that Uncle Bill's reading through the threads with us, just as surely as he's pleased that UB is on the wares peddled here.

Tom.
 
I don't like anything. Anything at all! I especially don't like politics. However, I'd hate to see the Cantina get too limited. While I post in a lot of the forums, this is "home". I like the "OT" topics most of the time and I like to hear what my, dare I say it without being presumptuous, friends here have to say. I'd much rather hear what Munk or Dan, etc. has to say about politics or any other OT topic than what somebody who I've never had any communications with over at Whine & Cheese, etc.

The thing that drives me the most nuts is when somebody with 8 posts starts something, which generally seems to happen less her than other places.

(I'd still generally rather talk about khuks, other knives, guns, trucks, etc) :)
 
I supposed I got the ball rolling on this subject when I posted in the Miers thread...
Ahem....this may be pointing out the obvious but....this may not be the correct forum for policitical discussions.

Things tend to get a little heated especially when the forumites don't agree with the mods.

Just a thought.



Semp
Click to expand...

And sure enough, munk jumped all over that comment, took offense, tempers flared and things went down hill after that when Kismet voiced similar feelings.

There is a reason Spark has a Political Arena on Bladeforums as Dan Koster correctly pointed out.

IF the all powerful mods decide to allow policital discussions on HI, then be prepared for what you are going to get. It won't be pretty and there will be several upset people to boot.

As for me I would rather discuss a good recipe for funnel cake and why it should be cut with a chiruwa AK. :rolleyes:
 
Semper, you stated your case very well. You were not sarcastic or hostile. I responded saying, 'in a lively forum sometimes things will heat up.' Paraphrase. That is hardly 'jumping' all over.
Right after your voiced objections Kismet started the ball rolling once more, even though the thread was fine.
Hollow and I were fine. We had an interaction and apologized to each making sure we were fine. We had a real moment. It was good. We were talking. I thought that is what the forum was about.

The problem occured with people insisting there be a problem. They gave offense, not the posters talking about politics.


This mod is not 'all powerful", and I do not understand.


munk
 
While I don,t think a Kukuuri only forum would falter, I do think it would lose some of the zest it has . I do not think that this forum is based solely upon the Kukuuri itself . It is also based upon what we do with them and by extension what we do and would like to share with our peers . Of course we occassionally step over the lines of each others comfort zones . I have as yet to see the exception that was not resolved by people re-establishing the boundaries of what is considered acceptable .
Do I like political discussions or even politicians for that matter?
I think by just my posing that question you may receive your response .
Could we exclude politics and not step further down that road to exclude religion ?
I think if we did that we might as well all buy buck knives and drive Volvos !
L:O:L
My apologies to any who find any of my suggestions distasteful . Personally I rather like some Volvos .
 
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