Discussion about Cantador4u ' s Photobucket account

If it were a simple matter of the guy just drawing out the knives, but he's using an application that takes photos and converts them to wire frame--he didn't draw anything, he cropped the knives out of pics, inputted, and got the resulting pictures we see in that album.
Cantador more than likely did not mean any harm--his naivete is in how he's only recently begun adding the maker's name or mark, juvenile, but symptomatic.
The problem lies, however, in the open access to that index and the fact he replicated those patterns without the makers' (plural) permission(s).
Furthermore, Ryan just stumbled onto the account by accident--But who else has as well?

I'm sure some of the other makers have noticed the alarming rate of middle eastern and chinese knockoffs being sold through fleabay, some of us in knife related groups on FaceBook have seen a rush of pakistani damascus makers who've joined said groups, and then in a month selling clones of Jerry Hossom's blades, or matsuda Kikos, need I go on?

The danger of that album is the fact that the wireframe sketches he supplies are perfect for downloading and converting to something like, oh, water-jet. Frankly speaking, the album puts branded designs in the public domain where individuals can copy and go as they please unaware they're committing intellectual theft since they are led to believe that the work is just something thrown up on the web.

Every term I have to teach our new instructors or first time e-teachers the university's policies on "best practices for using digital media" which is a fancy way of saying, "here's what you can or cannot use from what you find on the web." James Terrio, I believe, was bitten in the ass several months ago when a corp called to say he'd been using their image and owed them for the copyrighted image, serving him a stout bill and a cease and desist.
If you've made it and sold it, it's your copyrighted pattern and image--you have an active according for the original product, and therefore own any replication without immediate and full disclosure is considered copying for ill intent--And that the grossly under-worded description.
 
Looks like alot of work, quite the resource.... maybe a heads up on being entered into the account wouldve been appropriate?
 
The most damning piece of evidence that I can see in the album is the fact that the title has the word "patterns" in it. This implies the intention and desire to recreate these designs, either himself or for others.
 
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Ed Braun said:
If it were a simple matter of the guy just drawing out the knives, but he's using an application that takes photos and converts them to wire frame--he didn't draw anything, he cropped the knives out of pics, inputted, and got the resulting pictures we see in that album.
Click to expand...

What?! You can do that?
Ok, that changes everything in my book.
This is just plain scumbaggery.
It's one thing to 'interpret' a knife design through a photograph, using pencil and paper, another to buy a knife and trace out the pattern. But using a program to 'render' a duplicate pattern? Without consent, permission or notification? That's lazy, cheap and so ill conceived it makes me mad!

That anyone can freely download any of the patterns now, without consent, and bring them straight to waterjet, is just so wrong on so many levels.
 
Before everyone starts breaking out the tar and feathers.....

It has been my personal experience on both sides of the table that the biggest gaffes and misunderstandings are based upon lack of knowledge.

Mr. Cantador may simply be unaware that what he is doing is unethical at the least.

A maker or makers, should contact him, ascertain what exactly he is hoping to accomplish by his acts, and advise accordingly.....if there are nefarious actions afoot, obviously we should come together as a community to illuminate and underscore these acts, but we should also attempt to educate and guide those who may have unwittingly transgressed.

Until one maker loses money from what Mr. Cantador has done, the crime is of negligence, not of malice.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
You all don't know your knife history. The "stealing" of another's design has been one of the building blocks of the cutlery industry. Sharing of ideas is why patents used to run out in <20 years. Just a few years ago, on this forum, two knifmakers proudly stated they bought someone's custom knife at Blade and took it apart in their hotel room to find out how it worked. You can copy a Fisk Sendaro, but you won't keep him from selling his, nor will you get him to lower his prices :)

Isn't this kind of like university politics? The fight is viscious because the stakes are so low, i.e. the intellectual property in the drawings are not really worth anything at all by themselves. What is so special about the design of these knives? Many copy Loveless, both custom and production, but according to the experts on this forum, only about five loveless imitators are worth buying. As stated before, Tony Bose shares everything, design, construction and tips, but he still commands top dollar for his work. Not may Chinese copies of a Case Bose either, although one "American" importer is trying hard :)
 
Just a few years ago, on this forum, two knifmakers proudly stated they bought someone's custom knife at Blade and took it apart in their hotel room to find out how it worked
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I'm pretty sure this fellow hasn't done all these makers the courtesy of buying one of their blades.
 
Well, I've read the entire thread to this point, and I look at the linked web site. My gut feeling is that Señor Contador really isn't aware of the stink he has raised or that his efforts would have caused such a commotion. Therefore, I have to come down with the same opinion verbatim as my friend Stevie.

To save space, read post #25 again.;)

Paul
 
I agree.

What are we gonna do?

I think there should be a coordinated approach to ask Contador to remove the reverse-engineered content from his site.
It should have the backing of the group, or a list of supporting members.
What else?

seconds?
objections?
should it be coordinated through BF somehow?
 
I emailed the BF member who I believe is the account holder, and made him aware of this thread.
 
As I stated earlier. I do not feel "Señor Contador" had Malicious Intent in these duplications. He is a knife lover and as stated probably does not know what he is doing may be viewed as unethical or damaging in any way. Thanks for the comments so far.

I have attempted to contact him via Email. I have not heard from him.
 
sheathmaker said:
Well, I've read the entire thread to this point, and I look at the linked web site. My gut feeling is that Señor Contador really isn't aware of the stink he has raised or that his efforts would have caused such a commotion. Therefore, I have to come down with the same opinion verbatim as my friend Stevie.

To save space, read post #25 again.;)

Paul
Click to expand...

I ditto your ditto:)

Bob
 
I'll add more of my free opinion. I think what is rubbing people wrong is just the not asking before sharing, maybe the extent of the sharing too. beyond that, while I hate crappy knock offs (Marble's has been ruined, I wish I'd never sold my US made trail maker bowie, damnit) I can really appreciate a knife that is done quality but at less than some of these big name makers charge.

Sometimes I see something I really like, but I'm just too practical to spend more than it is worth for it. Before anybody jumps me, hey, if they can get the price fine, but for those of us that are working and can't afford to pay the "because I can" markup it sucks. There is a certain Tomahawk I'd love to have, if somebody were to make a "tribute" with near the same quality for 1/4-1/3 the price I'd buy it. Hell it's gonna sit in a drawer 98% of it's life.

Collectors or aficionados or fans will buy from the original person because they want HIS work. Some people just want the knife, and don't care about the name (yes, guys like me). My favorite pocket knife is one made in Brazil, I WISH somebody would copy that thing here! they want 1000 item order to ship here. In the modern world there's no valid excuse for that, and they're cheap to begin with, but I don't have 23,000 on hand and don't need 1000 knives. I would like to at some point make knives (as a hobby never as a business) and plan to copy my favorites. that little pocket knife being high on my list. But if I were going to post pictures anywhere of something I'd made that was a copy (however badly done) of somebody else's I would give them the credit. And I do think that if somebody is going to sell something it would be courteous to contact the original person, IF it was such a unique design it were attributable, and ask their blessing.

I had a friend who was an incredible gunsmith, he had designed different things himself (custom sights, many fixtures, sling swivels, triggers, safety etc.) and would oft-times get copied. I asked him about it once and his attitude was that he didn't mind, he'd even share his designs with people that he thought were capable of doing justice to them. He also said that they might find a better/faster way to do it that he'd benefit from. He didn't have enough money to fight patents or copyright battles and was small enough that it wouldn't hurt his business. I have seen some people try to copy some of his stuff and you see the separation between the master and the novice come out quick in how well, if at all, they are able to replicate things.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I can see the idea behind it, appreciate that thought and also very much appreciate the idea of inspiration and development that can be born out of it. I just think maybe not gone about the best way this time.

Red
 
IMHO Much ado over nothing.

Knife makers from hobbyists to professionals have been copying designs they like forever.

If Loveless didn't mind sharing exact designs of his blades, Egnath didn't mind publishing outline drawings of hundreds of his designs, etc., and makers, dealers, and collectors everywhere proudly post millions of pictures of their creations or inventory all over the world wide web for millions to view, what is different here that the drawing of a knife shape should somehow be protected?

Photos show even more of the design to copy- things like grind height and style, handle shaping, finish, etc. yet makers love to see their knife photos in the public domain, don't they.

A maker should be flattered that someone finds his knife design likable enough to post among his collection of design styles. It means you have designed a sellable knife shape. A simple outline copy does not assure anyone using that outline will produce a knife to rival yours by any means. They still have to grind the blade bevels, fit guard/bolster/pins, shape and contour the handle, finish appropriately, etc. Most buyers of custom knives buy the maker as much as the product. I have never seen anyones business hurt from copies, has anyone else? Where's the damage?
 
That is an impressive data base.

Looks like he has taken work he admires and does what every art student has done with the works of the Masters.

I have no idea of any plans he has but....

In the art world copying, tracing, drawing and coloring are ways to fine tune and develop you skills. When I go to museums such as the Getty and Norton Simon there are always people sitting down and copying the masters. And I have even seen them using Ipads :)

Taking pictures and making outlines for his personal use is completely legal and ethical. If he uses them for anything else then it is not.
 
AVigil said:
Taking pictures and making outlines for his personal use is completely legal and ethical. If he uses them for anything else then it is not.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
Sharing them ungoverned with the entire internet isn't "personal use". Quite the opposite - it's "whole world use", and that's the perogative of the original designer.

-Daizee
 
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