Discussion about Cantador4u ' s Photobucket account

This is “Senor Cantador”, AKA “lonepine”, AKA Paul Meske,
I became aware of this thread and will make that particular album private rather than public so that not just anyone can see them.

I will attempt to answer some of the major questions.

What the HECK were you thinking?!?!?!?
I am an amateur knife maker since I retired in 2008 and have no plans nor desire to “go professional”. I have another public photobucket album of knife designs of my own as well as another album of knives I’ve made. I don’t claim to be an expert in the field of design (nor knife making) and in addition to drawing my own designs I find pictures of knives that I like and “draw” them to get a feeling for what a good knife should be as well as different trends and styles. I thought others may benefit from it also.

What about the modifications?
Those are mental exercises so that I can see how it might look if done in a different was such as a change in blade shape, length, grind, size, etc, or the handle shape. The text explanation at the beginning of the album is intended to clarify this.

Why did I feel it was OK to post these pictures?
Right or wrong, good or bad, this is my thought process. If I found a photo of a knife online and posted it that would be questionable because the photo is the work of someone else and protected by copyright. On the other hand If I took a photo of a knife, any knife, and posted it, there would be no complaint because it would be MY photo. If I draw a picture of a knife and posted it how would that be different than my photograph? By including the name of the designer whenever I am able to determine it is intended to: 1, give credit to the designer and, 2, point potential customers to the makers.

Why didn’t I ask permission from the knife maker?
Several reasons, some, heck most, not so good. It takes time and effort and being prone to human weakness I thought I could skip that because I was not posting THEIR photograph but MY drawing.

Why am I posting all those pictures at all?
I am on the mystical quest for the perfect knife along with a lot of other people. I was thinking that by having a place where newbes and others could see good knife designs this might accelerate their own development while I work on the development of my own. My thinking is that by distilling it to a simple line drawing the underlying design is made more apparent when not being distracted by finely finished steel and handle material.

How did I make the drawings?
Obviously not with a pen and paper. I use the lowly MS Paint program. I start with a photo of a knife but they are not mere direct tracings of photographs. I need to use my judgment in the process because there are perspective problems or something else that precludes doing that.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions. (anon.)
I am not profiting nor monetarily benefiting from this effort. I am not trying to take credit for intellectual work I did not do. I am attempting to give information to enable potential customers to contact the knife makers, and trying to provide a resource that might help someone see various aspects of knife design to assist them in their understanding of knife design. It is certainly not to creep people out and have them feel uncomfortable but clearly that has happened. I deeply regret that.

Let the floggings commence.


On the road to hell,

- Paul Meske, AKA lonepine, AKA Mud
 
lonepine said:
I am on the mystical quest for the perfect knife
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GREAT! Now we're gonna have to hear all the becker heads come on here about how becker has already made the perfect knife, and then watch an argument over which one it is. :D

Seeing your thought process I can understand where you're coming from. I'm not one of the knife makers so don't know their feelings on it, I think it is a great resource to beginning knife makers that are looking for a starting point. Maybe if all of the originals could be credited then people looking at them wanting to use it could contact the maker to get their blessing?

Red
 
Hi Lonepine,

Thanks for hiding the archive and posting here.
I appreciate all the work you've put into your electronic resource.

As you no doubt realize from reading the forgoing thread, the general feeling is (certainly mine, I only speak for myself) that your quest to make the perfect knife, and your methods for going about are not a problem. The issue is with the sharing of the representations of the original makers' designs.

Each person joining this field of work has the ethical obligation to do their own diligence with respect to representing and reproducing the art of others. One major problem with publicly re-sharing these designs, even though you derived them yourself, is that it insulates the anonymous billions from their responsibility of due diligence. Clearly you yourself have considered *your own* responsibility to the makers in your own work, and for that I applaud and thank you.

I find no fault with the way in which you are going about your own design work. Indeed, i have made drawings from internet pictures myself when beginning process of learning to design a knife. If you were to share your own designs, including references (meaning links here, generally) to pictures of influential blades, I think that would be a fine thing and a wonderful contribution to the community of knifemakers of all levels of experience from which we all could benefit. There may also be makers who would like to share their 'source code', such as it is, and need only be asked. There may be still others who scowl at computers and grind off the cuff who would love to have someone convert their finished pieces back into patterns for their own use - you may have discovered a small business niche!

In any case, thank you for taking seriously the concerns of those motivated to post in this thread.

(P.S. Red is right - Ethan Becker already did it, why all the work? ;) )

-Daizee, Beckerhead #66
 
I have to admit that I did the same thing Patrice. Hehe. Thank you Paul for adressing the concerns. I believe that your apology goes a long way sir.
 
If I were an affected maker, I'd just send in notice of which designs were mine, let Mr. Cantador add the logos and contact information for each, and use it as the resource it's intended to be. Because, to be completely honest, it has the makings of an extremely informative knife buyer's database. As a buyer myself, I'd love the opportunity to browse these templates, see what I like, and visit the links to refine my search. Hell, it should probably be a sticky somewhere in the Knifemaker's section!

That said, I understand where the makers are coming from, too. Certainly, we all want credit for our work. Even more certainly, we all want to keep things from being too easy for those unscrupulous few who are hellbent on stealing rather than creating.
 
I wish there was a database where you could download life size extremely accurate patterns, dimensions and descriptions for all the loveless designs i'd be happy to pay for the privilege. Maybe $5 a download? With Bob gone and Jim getting older it would be a great resource to make sure these classic designs would live on forever and available to new makers. perhaps it could be setup so the the proceeds benefit Bob and Jims families?
just thinking out loud.
 
Adam Reese said:
I tried to look at it just now and it says it's private and asks for a password...Anyone else run into this?

-Adam
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Read Post #42

Paul (lonepine)
I did not intend to cause a headache for you, when I found out the account was yours I had little concern as to your good intentions. I appreciate you posting here and making the album private for your personal use.

I think most would agree if you take designs and manipulate them to your specs they are your creation and therefore not an issue if made public.
 
daizee said:
Agreed, Ryan, until given reason to believe otherwise.


I think US Copyright law is pretty clear on the topic, and in this case the law comports with my gut feelings:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#permission


-Daizee
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Important addendum..imho
17 U.S.C. § 107

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.[2]
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Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107
They would make GREAT coloring books for an aspiring, 4 year old, knifemaker..... :)
 
North said:
From my admittedly brief knifemaking experience I know there is much more to making a knife than just a traced design.

If someone duplicates your design does that harm you somehow? I don’t know, but I do know that the copiers of Jerry Fisk’s Sendero design don’t seem to have hurt Jerry any. The same could be said of Bob Loveless and of course others. Maybe it depends on how good the design is or how good the maker is at the multitude of aspects of knifemaking as a business.

If it is something that bothers you, and you feel the design is your property, perhaps you should consider seeing if your designs are eligible to be copyrighted. http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap13.html#1301

Bill
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Well said Bill.
 
Lorien said:
What?! You can do that?
Ok, that changes everything in my book.
This is just plain scumbaggery.
It's one thing to 'interpret' a knife design through a photograph, using pencil and paper, another to buy a knife and trace out the pattern. But using a program to 'render' a duplicate pattern? Without consent, permission or notification? That's lazy, cheap and so ill conceived it makes me mad!

That anyone can freely download any of the patterns now, without consent, and bring them straight to waterjet, is just so wrong on so many levels.
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Yes, I agree, if that were to be the case it would be a horse of a different color.
 
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