Discussion and Design of a Survival Knife

I will definitely be tracking your progress on this. Looks like you have a very workable design for a O.T.O. I really like the idea of keeping a small section of the spine closest to the scales rounded and then giving customer the option on the rest. If I can ask, what does it measure from spine to the cutting edge at the widest point?
 
Big Chris said:
A few weeks ago I bought season one and two of Alone on Amazon streaming and watched them.
I got very interested in the knives carried and it got me thinking what would I want to carry into or have on me in a Survival situation.
I started a thread on it in my sub forum but thought I would like to get you guys input as well.
The thread is linked below:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1456629-One-Knife-Survival-Knife

I plan to do more camping and outings this year with my kids and what better than a newly designed knife to start making new memories with.
I would typically carry several knives to use but really want to clean my "kit" up since I will need to pack extra things for the kids.

Thanks for looking and I would like if you could help keep the discussion going.

Here is a picture of one of the first 4 getting ready to go into heat treat.

sk1.jpg
Click to expand...

Big Chris, thanks for starting this thread.

A couple of conceptual thoughts and then some specific questions about your design approach.

We love, love, love Alone!!! Super compelling show.

This said, I find there to be a tremendous disconnect between the show and camping and backpacking as I experience. Primarily, I find the limited supplies to be an artificial construct and I honestly can't think of an actual real-life situation that would lead me to be in the same position the contestants in the show are in. If we're talking about remote rural living, even homesteading in the bush, I find the Nat Geo show "Life Below Zero" much more realistic. You have a greater selection of tools available at the homestead and when out in the bush, you are constrained with the typical backcountry constraint of weight. Car camping is somewhat similar. Yes, less stuff than I have at my home but still have the luxury/reality of a greater set of tools available. Backcountry backpacking, for me, is stove/tent based. In this way, Life Below Zero's Glenn Villeneuve is the guy I most relate to. When he's in the bush, he's relying on modern tents and gear as a part of his kit.

Picking up from a comment you made in the original thread, about essentials and day-hikes gone wrong, I use and advocate a small kit of essentials (including first aid) that stay in a small pack in my car. I don't go in the woods with out these 2 pouches. Ever. My essential kit is spread across a small waist pack (worn at 12 oclock) and 2 small waist pack sized organizers. Much more than an altoids tin but small enough to always be with me. As a dad and frequent trip leader of people less experienced, my kit is bigger than an ultra light hiker's kit and I'm OK with that.

In the winter, this kit includes a small folding stove and light folding saw. I live in New England and a stove like this can be fed with minimal effort and with minimal impact.
Untitled by Pinnah, on Flickr

This said, where I go, fires are either expressly forbidden, discouraged or tightly constrained. Mind you, I still make fires where they can be made and used without impact, but it's worth noting that my standard backcountry carry is a light folding knife and small multi-tool. I consider these "backcountry survival" tools but I recognize that this backpacking orientation isn't at all what you're fishing for here.

In the end, I do have an interest in a 6" +/- utility "survival" type knife for trips where I know I'll be making a fire. I'll have a folidng stove and folding saw with me (as well as an alcohol or gas stove). In fact, I have a Buck Reaper sitting next to me as I type this...

With all this rambling over, here is a list of tasks I think of when considering this style of knife and what i think of those tasks.

I would be interested what you think about the tasks (do you consider them use cases your design should support or not) and I would be super interested to hear how you think your design addresses the tasks you're trying to support.

HEAVY CHOPPING (Sectioning wood) - This isn't something I do. I use a folding saw.

LIGHT CHOPPING (Delimbing branches thumb sized or thinner) - This is something I do. Exhausting but possible with an Opinel #10 or Mora Companion. Easier with a Buck Reaper.

CROSS-GRAIN BATTONING (Up to 2" diameter) - Not something I do as I generally have a saw with me but something I consider to be reasonable for a survival/utility knife.

BATON SPLITTING (Up to 3"-4" diameter) - I consider this essential.

HARD CARVING (Feather stick making) - I consider this essential.

FINE CARVING (Notching) - I consider this essential.

SMALL GAME PROCESSING (Fish, squirrels) - I consider this essential.

LARGE GAME PROCESSING (Deer) - I consider this essential.

FOOD PREP (Vegetables and spreading peanut butter) - I consider this essential.


I'd be super interested to hear your thoughts on the list of tasks. Are there others? What do you consider to be essential?

I'd also be super interested to hear how your design addresses what you consider to be the essential tasks.

Thanks!
 
I really enjoyed the show "Life Below Zero" as well.
However, we do not have TV, other than NETFLIX, and I have not had luck finding new episodes on youtube.
I too really liked Glenn's use of hand tools and primitive style of living, he was my favorite as well.

As for your prompts I have copied them below to provide answers.
I will put my answer beneath each question of yours.
First I would like to say that I am not a fan of batoning and in most cases consider it abuse of a knife.
With that said I have not made too many knives of this size, thickness, style, or intended use.
Also, as stated previously I have never put as much thought in designing a knife as I have this one.
However, all the proposed scenarios below were present in my thought process during the designing.

HEAVY CHOPPING (Sectioning wood) - This isn't something I do. I use a folding saw.

My thoughts here were to make the knife capable of chopping a branch or small tree, say 2" to 3", and using that as a baton to gain mechanical advantage for "chopping".

LIGHT CHOPPING (Delimbing branches thumb sized or thinner) - This is something I do. Exhausting but possible with an Opinel #10 or Mora Companion. Easier with a Buck Reaper.

Definitely, Yes, the knife was intended for such uses. With the slight weight forward balance it should be quite efficient at such tasks.

CROSS-GRAIN BATTONING (Up to 2" diameter) - Not something I do as I generally have a saw with me but something I consider to be reasonable for a survival/utility knife.

As mentioned above this was a use also considered. However, rather than going straight across the grain it would be much more efficient to go at a bias.

BATON SPLITTING (Up to 3"-4" diameter) - I consider this essential.

In a survival scenario all the above uses will be common place, I assume. This is why I decided to make the knife from 3/16" rather than 1/8" or 5/32".
The ideal way for splitting, IMO, is to work from the outside in instead of going straight for the middle.

HARD CARVING (Feather stick making) - I consider this essential.

I have made very few knives that I would not expect to accomplish this task.
For best control I have brought the cutting edge as close to the hand as possible while leaving a flat area for the fingers to ride against.
To help with carving I also left a bit of straight edge before starting the sweep up to the tip.
I find this straight area right against the handle is where I get the best curls.

FINE CARVING (Notching) - I consider this essential.

Handle design was simplified slightly to allow more comfort while being used in the various grips.
I would like to think this knife could fall in the category of a small camp knife or a large Bushcraft knife.
Even for the weekend warrior carving and notching are without a doubt going to happen.
I also tried to keep the tip from getting too pointy to be brittle while drilling.

SMALL GAME PROCESSING (Fish, squirrels) - I consider this essential.

This is where I tried to flirt the line with the tip.
I wanted it fine enough to open and clean small game while still being robust enough for drilling.
The blade is definitely long and wide enough to choke up on the spine for the best possible tip control.

LARGE GAME PROCESSING (Deer) - I consider this essential.

A good amount of belly is what I deigned in for this purpose.
That belly will make long sweeping cuts when skinning or butchering very pleasant.

FOOD PREP (Vegetables and spreading peanut butter) - I consider this essential.

Well, with the 6" blade you are not going to have a hard time reaching the bottom of the PB jar.
I have laid one of the almost finished knives on a cutting board to see how it feels, and I did like what it offered.
The blade shape really lends itself to rocking and chopping just like one would do with a kitchen knife.
I like the edge geometry to be thin enough to cut efficiently, which is what a knife is supposed to do, but heavy enough to not fail.

One last note on these knives is the reason I have chosen high carbon tool steel.
Not only is O1 what I had on hand in the thickness I wanted, but I wanted this knife to be easily sharpened in the field.
Not everyone is going to carry a diamond or ceramic stone into the bush and a creek rock will not cut 3V efficiently.
These knives at 59 Rc will be easily stropped on a leather or canvas belt, or sharpened on the edge of a car window or rock found in the field.

Thanks for probing my mind a bit.
Let me know if you have any other thoughts or questions.
 
I would now like to share a picture of the first 4 with the handles roughly shaped.

surv.jpg


All are currently spoken for.
 
lyco.woodsrunner said:
I will definitely be tracking your progress on this. Looks like you have a very workable design for a O.T.O. I really like the idea of keeping a small section of the spine closest to the scales rounded and then giving customer the option on the rest. If I can ask, what does it measure from spine to the cutting edge at the widest point?
Click to expand...

The blade is 1.75" wide at the plunge.

Thanks for following along.
 
lmalterna said:
Chris,
:) The person I was working with wanted me to throw the kitchen sink at them and it was a chance to make the ultimate compromise knife so I could try ideas out.

I have subscribed to both threads and would like very much to try this design of yours. It looks like a real winner and your reputation for functional using knives is tops.

Thanks,
Bill
Click to expand...

Bill,
I definitely plan to make some more of these soon.
I want to get some 52100 and W2 in soon to use for them as well.
First I have to get my Bladesports Competition Chopper finished, and I have only 13 days.
 
Wilkes said:
They are beautiful knives. Has the steel been mentioned yet?
Click to expand...

I believe he chose O1. I about 99% sure it was stated somewhere in the other thread he has open, but you'd have to dig.

Edit: he actually confirmed O1 a few posts above this one, lol.
 
Thanks for following along and your comments.

A couple pictures of the first Voyager finished.

IMG_3829.jpg


IMG_3830.jpg


Weight of the finished knife is 9.7 oz and 12.2 oz in the sheath.

This one also had a slightly altered heat treat and that is the reason for the notch in the spine.

I decided to round the spine right in front of the handle, leave a 2" section sharp, and then break the edge to the tip.

Let me know if you have any other questions or comments.
 
I really like your designs. Clean lines, and very functional. No extraneous bullshit. Always great.
 
Greetings,

I haven't read through all the posts, so I'm probably restating what others may have covered.

Probably the biggest variable (at least in my mind) for designing a 'survival' knife is it a 'stand alone' cutting implement in the situation, or is it part of a larger kit where you're going to have other tools...axe, saw, multi-tool, SAK, etc. If its going to be the only cutting tool you have, its design will probably vary considerably compared to if its going to be part of a larger system or gear available. Put another way, it can be quite a bit simpler, smaller, lighter weight if you'll have other tools at hand. It it's going to be the 'one and only,' and expected for a longer trip, additional features...serrated/saw edge, pry points, etc might become more of a consideration.

A secondary consideration is what do you give priority to: Pure cutting ability or durability? If you really want the ability to slice ultra-wafer thin slices of tomatoes in your 'survival' knife? Or are you wanting a thicker more durable edge that might not slice as well? In a survival knife, IMHO, the nod goes towards the durability scale.

When I actually am able to get away for more than ~1 hr. trail walk, I usually have a couple three cutting tools with me.

To cover the basic chassis, leaning more the 'one and only' knife:

1. Full tang construction of a good, tough stainless steel (3V, etc). to minimize corrosion concerns, so it can be left uncoated for cleanliness/hygiene/food prep.
2. At least 3/16" thick, probably more towards 1/4" if the blade is over 6 inches (which I prefer in a stand-alone field knife).
3. Blade 5-8" in length. Big enough to get the job done, but not so big as to be cumbersome or unwieldy
4. Strong tip with the full blade thickness carried as close to the tip as practical.
5. High saber-type grind for cutting, but not taken super thin behind the edge for durability.
6. Brightly colored (Blaze Orange) ergonomic grip of high durability/grippy material (micarta, Kraton, etc) and a positive guard.
7. Traction/stippling pads (like what Buck has done on some models) above the grind line for gripping
8. Drop Point or something of clip point with serrations in the clip portion (ala Buckmaster) if fiber materials are expected routinely. This would leave the spine for those that simply must baton.
9. Functional, flat pommel that could easily withstand light hammering chores.
10. Choil ability to 'choke up' for finer work and sharpening.
11.Straight edge (no recurve) for simplicity and ease of sharpening.
12. Good sheath, similar to SpecOps with of hi viz materials, and good pouch for carrying additional items (lighter, fishing kit, etc).
13. Good, functional lanyard.
14. Priced at $29.95 or less;) (Kidding, but price would be a determining factor...you'd want it to be at least semi-affordable to the bulk of your target audience).

Just off the top of my head...YMMV.

And FWIW, I'm in a similar boat...after a few years of having extremely limited 'trail time,' I'm hoping that starting in the very near future we're able to get a lot more family time in the woods.

BOSS
 
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I'd carry that for sure. I would prefer a sheath w a pouch either leather or nylon but the plastic sheath is practical too. Wouldn't be a deal breaker
 
bore said:
I'd carry that for sure. I would prefer a sheath w a pouch either leather or nylon but the plastic sheath is practical too. Wouldn't be a deal breaker
Click to expand...

Thank You.

I only do kydex now.
I had too many knives cut out of their sheaths or stab through the bottom.
I don't have to worry about that with Kydex, but that is at the expense of scratches on the blade.
 
Wow Chris, great looking blade. You nailed it with the 3/16 thickness. Plenty thick enough for batoning yet still capable as a cutter. This is my favorite to date. I took the coating off because it was grabbing the wood as I was batoning
image_zps98n36rgm.jpeg
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give me the Leatherman Surge, any day, with the optional longer saw blade. It makes any one knife look sick by comparison. there's no reason to give a good gd about what survival gear looks like. What matters is what you can do with it.
 
Chris, I really like the looks of this design. It falls right inline with what I consider an ideal survival knife. It has similarities of the Esee 6 and the Fiddleback production Duke which I regard as some of the best out there. I hope to check this model out at blade this year.
 
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