Discussion post only

my only point is that I would like to know more details. I can't very well get excited about a weighted plastic bali but a 3" SS handled bali for $50 has me standing on one hand levitating rocks.
 
It's possibly skepticism as to whether or not it's possible. Quality wise it almost has to fall somewhere between a Jag and a BM forty-two. The question is exactly where. Don't get me wrong, I believe you are in earnest. Also, if it ultimately costs $75 street, well that's not far off street price for a forty series. Even so if it's well made we might buy it anyway. And since there's no obligation in signing up, why not. Good luck.
 
I see many "where can I get a $50.00 bali?" posts, yet only about 10% of the people that view the post reply that they would be interested.
Click to expand...

Several reasons I can come up with for that:

1) People who ask "Where can I get a $50.00 bali" aren't here to contribute to a discussion. They're here to ask a question, get their answer, and move along. Because going to the experts and getting advice is better than putting any effort into doing any research yourself. The same people don't bother using the search button when they arrive.. I mean.. why bother if people like us answer them with more than they could ever need within the next 5 minutes? I've been guilty of this myself a few times since I've been here.

2) This isn't a $50.00 crowd.

3) Not enough details.

4) $50.00 isn't worth getting excited about. Not when people here usually discuss their aquisition of multi-hundred/multi-thousand dollar blades.

Also some people who seem to be the end all be all of balisong knowledge, and have purported to buy every new thing on the block, haven't yet stepped up to the plate to say "yeah, I'll take one". Why is this? Is it me? Do I offend?
Click to expand...

I'll elaborate on #2 that I mentioned above. Nobody sits around and talks about a pair of scissors. Nobody sits around and talks about an old pair of shoes they found at a garage sale, (Just comparing the idea, not the value). They're not discussion worthy.

People here in this forum are enthusiests or addicts. They dedicate a significant portion of either their time, or their money (Which they spent time earning) to pursue one of their favorite interests, Balisongs. Also are people who have an interest in watching people who have an interest in balisongs. I don't go join a forum on dishwashers when I'm looking to buy one or after I've bought one. I go to a store, I buy it, I take it home.. I use it every day.. but I don't care. It's not something I want to discuss. If I was an appliance rep.. I might.

The higher the price, the higher the number of collectors and enthusiests who want to discuss it. The knife you proposed isn't going to be an upgrade for many people here.

For most.. $50.00 is such an insignificant sum they might not have anything to say other than "Meh.. sure, why not, I'll take one. I'll take two, in case I give one away."

I certainly hope this project happens, and it all doesn't hinge on the forums, I am just perplexed at the amount of apathy the possibility of a QUALITY $50.00 balisong is producing among this forum.
Click to expand...

Look at how many of the people who start an "I'm looking for a bali" thread are actually here longer than a week. You can't possibly be interested in *everything* you go to buy. Most of the "I want a cheap knife" threads are born and die on a bi-weekly basis. So while there seem to be a large portion of "Jag" to "BM" threads.. at any given moment, there aren't that many "Jag crowd" people here. They may outnumber the forum members anybody recognises, but they're in and out in a flash.

If I didn't have a balisong, I wouldn't be here. If I was interested in Balisongs, I'd already have one (it really starts *after* you've already bought/touched/twirled your first one). If I was interested in looking for more balisongs, it'd largely be an upgrade/collection. Buyers are everywhere.. just not here.

Ask people what they want.. you'll get a big responce (Look at the T-Shirt/Bumper sticker threads).. tell them what they might get.. and they don't have much to say other than "Tell me more." It's not enough to say "yes" to, it's not enough to talk about, it's just the sound of people paying attention.

It sounds like a great project, and I myself am certainly interested in it and know there's a whole bunch of other people like myself.. but if you're looking for support for a lower-level project.. you're probably only going to find people willing to discuss it if they're the ones selling it. (Who're always interested in buying at any level). I haven't discovered an overwhelming number of dealers here yet.. and they're not likely to reply once each for every number they want ;)

*sigh*.. that was rather long winded. Conclusion: There's a market... but the market doesn't know it. I don't hang around a wristwatch forum to talk about my Timex Ironman.. and I don't hang around hoping they're going to release a scaled-down Rollex at half price that I'd suddenly be interested in purchasing. The same applies here I think.

But that's just me.

On a different note.. I like the idea of a kit. I'd be willing to buy kits to save a little bit of money. I don't know how diverse you want to get on all the different options.. but the option of a kit would be nice.

Keep us posted Ghen.. my eyes are open.
 
From a post in the Spyderco thread I am reminded that plastic could include Zytel such as Spyderco uses for some of their handles. This is tough stuff, and properly weighted it would work.
 
okay if it was the Spyderco bali I would trust plastic in that case because I trust Mr. Glesser.
 
Originally posted by RARanney
. Also, if it ultimately costs $75 street, well that's not far off street price for a forty series.
Click to expand...

For clarification, if this happens the ceiling will be $75.00 RETAIL, not street price.
 
Bottom Line: Make it.., and most of us will buy it :)....if we don't like it.., we will trade it or sell it to get something else...



"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Hey don't get me wrong, I want it to happen! it's trying to convince a bunch of suits that it is a moneymaker that is the challenge. I know everyone says "make it, and you'll sell a bunch", but that doesn't mean as much as 300 - 400 people each saying "Yeah, I'd buy one."
 
Well... yes, and no.

I think with the sudden interest on teh part of MFRs. Within 2 years of the re-intro of the BM, we now have smaller run deals like the monarch, along with larger interest, like the microtech, cold steel, adn forthcoming Spyderco. That the market is there should be demonstrable. Part of the hassle is finding something good enough to actually sell, part of it is finding a way to make em think it's going to hold up. Part of it is showing it'll be profitable.

Personally, I happen to think there may be ways to import some of the stock that's used to make pieces from China... for example, make bar stock that has beveled edges, is slot-milled, and is drilled every 1/2 or 3/4 of an inch, all the way down. It's not knife specific, but you can cut it, use the end hole for a pivot, and countersink the others for decorative/grip purposes, adn it wil still be decent looking, without the cost of doing all the machining here.

Blade blanks that can be used for regular cheap folders, or balis, depending on the drilling woudl be nice, too. Just have 2"or so of unshaped or drilled steel beneath the blade. If they're not bali-specific, can they still be stopped? Then do final machining of pivot hole/holes here. (I'm very likely full of it on this one, but it still seems that there should be a way of importing some form of blanks or half-shaped stock material that's half-formed, but not yet to the point that it's become bali-specific, so that the pieces can't be halted. A knife line offerign the same blade shape with different halde/opening designs shouldn't be too bad of a thing.

Plastic likewise. Plastic Handle scales shouldn't be too hard, I wouldn't think, to pass customs... or stock molded half-round rods that can be sectioned for scales. With a plant in the us drilling stainless liners, and bolting up the scales, you'd have a structural frame, with plastic cheapness, made here. Drilling and shaping liner blanks is relatively easy to set up on a machine. I would think tapping, too... and then it's just a question of assembly. (Done in the south or west, where there aren't unions that will demand to be paid $20 an hour to assemble 10 knife kits a day)

The zytel idea is also a good one... molded around a simply designed stainless skeleton would keep it structurally sound. Again, the evenly drilled all the way down idea could work here really really well, but in a pattern... smaller holes in between larger ones along a long stock piece of cheaper steel, to be cut and used for the skeleton later... but it's not bali-specific, a strip of metal with evenly drilled holes can be used just as easily in kits for building a variety of things. With tapered holes int eh zytel à la skeleton stainless handles it'd look nice, be almost heavy enough, and then drill/tap the end holes for round brass slugs, for final weight... and brass is relatively cheap, too.

These are all just stray thoughts spewing from someone who's not an engineering, manufacturing, or knifemaking guru.

The real issue seems to be, (or so it seems to my ignorant self) a question not of putting together not the pieces of the knife, but the pieces of the company... organizing the marketing, (like was mentioned; not just selling to the 300 here, but to the banks, the stores, and eventually the peopel who would conceivably buy it) designing efficient assembly, that is sufficiently automated to make labor costs smaller, but still not so complicated that the costs of the machinery don't get so high from over-specialization. (too much milling, shaping, etc) Organizing all of this is harder than making the knife itself. The real engineering is in the assembly, not the design here. It's not making a cheap knife, it's engineering the simplest way to produce them, and finding a way to get the cost of some of the machining and production down. (well, ok, duh... but seriously, the knife design comes second at that point to the design of the manufacture... maybe third or fourth)


Blah blah blah... I talk too much : )
 
Excellent idea Lothar. All that would help bring it closer to the $50 target. Except that the hardest part to overcome is the labor cost, as the final assembly will be done in the USA. And USA labor is significantly higher than the rest of the world where CCC's are made. Additional attention will be required to minimize that labor cost if the bali is expected to come out at the $50 per unit target. As every bali, unless it's superbly engineered and executed like the Tachyon, will require some form of final hand assembly. In that regards, the labor cost can become the mill stone for this project.
 
OK, I'm a newbie and an ol' fahrt. I was brought up to beleive that you get what you pay for. To me, its hard to beleive that a $50 bali will compare to the quality of a $150 knife. I'm also dedicated to BM products, lets get that out in the forefront. Regardless of who makes it, if its not a quality piece it won't sell. On this forum it will get a bad rap and that's its death knell. Sure, the un-initiated will buy this POS and it may be an introductory knife. In the long haul, the quality product will be the winner. The folks who sell the cheapies may well become rich in the meentime, but - the purchaser will "graduate" to a better quality product. The tolerances required to make an acceptable quality Bali necessitate state of the art equipment as well as trained operators. None of this is cheap. As Tony has said, the major factor here is labor. For me, I'd rather spend my $$$s on a knife made here in the U.S.A., and keep a fellow American employed. Yes, I have quit purchasing imports, to the best of my ability to do so. Hope you'll consider doing the same.
 
I hear what you're saying tony, and I really do agree... I was just babbling on trying to come up with ways to have some of the work done overseas for stock material. Drilling, milling, and such. A lot of it is machinist's work, that I'm pretty sure they do much more cheaply over there. I'm not arguing that it's more expensive here. It is. Much.On the other hand, I was trying ot point out that the more engineering you put into something to make it more easily assmebled, the cheaper it will be to put together here. Jaguar is actually (gag) a good example of this. Pins and material aside, it's a viable concept that ultimately works. They sell because it's cheaply made, adn easily assembled. Had they put a little more thought into using a stronger pin, they might have at least a slightly better reputation.Find a way to machine and partially finish good stock material and production costs here will go down some, because we won't have to pay US labor rates.

As for them being poorly received...

Well, yes, and no. Make them decent enough, adn peopel will buy them, as they did Bear. And as much as Jaguar gets flamed here, they are still in business. If we can manage it so we get something that costs twice as much, conceivably we could get it twice as good. Think abotu it: in material costs, if Jag was made with 440C, which isn't such a price boost from the 420 or 440A they use, with stronger pins, that wouldn't cost much more either, and better metal for the handles, we could get them for (conceivably) $40, instead of 20. Would you pay that for a decent knife? We're not talking titanium handles and Mirotech machining quality, or BM's reputation, for sure, but at least something usable, bang-aroundable, that won't break those of us that can't afford tony's knife-buying habits :)rolleyes: ) to buy, and won't break from actual usage.

Would that really get such a bad review?

No, it's not in the same league as BM or Micro, or Spyderco, or Cold Steel. But it'd damn sure be a step up from Jag they way they are now.

I'm a knife snob, I'll confess. I mainly carry BM (942 or 722), spyderco, or my CQC-7 for daily pocket carry. Spyderco makes a GREAT knife for the lower price ranges. The Delica, for example, doesn't get wild rave reviews like an LCC, and may not get knife of the year, or anything like that. But it's solid, it sells, And people rely on em. My guess is if there was a deal of the year, they'd get it.If someone tried an affordable bali that was better than Jaguar, without the handle breaking issues of the Bear, would people still drool over it? Maybe, maybe not. It sure as hell won't be a tachyon. But I bet it'd sell.
 
I for one I am not interested in a $50 bali. Reason being, that I am not completely happy with a $100 bali (BM42).

I would be interested in "improving" the $100 bali...My BM42 complaints concern the blade only. IMO and only IMO it needs better edge geometry and to some extent maybe a better steel. In the Imada books it seems that some weehawk blades are hollow ground...This would be my only request. I know that a hollow grind has to be done by hand. I just think that the BM4X series need to be more agressive slicers...

Sorry if I stepped on any toes, but I think we should push for better quality, not a lower price

Bill
 
Bill, those Imada books you are looking at were published many years ago. I think that the blades you are talking about being hollow ground are of 3/16 inch blade stock. Currently BM is using I think 1/8 inch blade stock. I for one would love to see the return of 3/16 stock. Seems like a lot more can be done with it. Let BM know. Its the only way we might see some of the old knives returned to production.:D
 
Well I do not have time to go into a greatly detailed answer but a <$50 bali is in the works at least on my end and the handle will most likely be aluminum. I hope to debut my new design at the Blade Show with pics shown here first (before the show).

Question............

How about an AUS-8 blade?

I just need the feedback on the steel for now as I have already nearly completed the final design.
 
Mike, how about some steel handles. Blade steel? AUS8 is fine, but how about D2? Or O1? Or 1095?
 
AUS-8 is fine by me. A good quality cheap steel. Sounds good.

Oh and ditto on what navajo said;)
 
AUS-8 is fine by me, as are any of the non stainless or semi-stainless (D-2 is nice) types.
 
Steel handles require too much milling where as we can CNC aluminum very fast and it would not be cost prohibitive. Seeing the Microtech Tachyon in aluminum made me think that this is the way to go.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top