Recommendation? DMT vs Traditional wetstone

Just a personal preference based on my experience.
I like Shapton Glass or Shapton Pro stones for the low vanadium steels.
I've had very good results with Atoma and DMT for the high vanadium steels.
 
bgentry said:
DMT:

Stay flat forever; no need to level them. Cut any kind of steel and does it well. No wasted effort. Grit or mesh ratings are more coarse than they seem. "Extra fine" (9 micron) produces a finish that's more coarse than a Spyderco medium.

Can be splashed with water, used with mineral oil, or used dry.

Good feedback, but can take a light touch to remove the final burr. Speaking of light touch, you DO NOT WANT to use much pressure with DMT stones. If you do, you will rip the diamonds out of the nickel plate making your plates much less useful. Ask me how I know. :) The XXC plate is much tougher and you can use a good amount of force on it without damage. If you are doing heavy grinding at all (or do not have the patience to spend a lot of time setting initial edges) I highly recommend the XXC.

Waterstones:

Many require soaking in water. Others only require "splashes" of water to work. All need water. No oil allowed! Oil will ruin the stones.

Will dish with use and need to be flattened. Typical practice is to flatten them before every session. This varies from stone to stone as some are very hard, some are very soft, and some are in between.

As with hardness, the grit rating and "feel" of a stone varies wildly from brand to brand and model to model. You need to study this a bit to get what you want. Many people end up with a wide variety of water stones because they are all so different in many ways. Some people even collect them.

Waterstones will cut basic steels with ease and most entry level "super steels" won't be a problem either. Anything with a lot of Vanadium will be a problem for most waterstones. S90V and S110V probably won't work on the vast majority of waterstones.

The feedback from these also varies a lot. They are generally pretty soft, which means less feedback, but there are harder stones too. I have trouble with my small set of waterstones because of this. However, the slurry that forms (or something else about the friability of waterstones) makes deburring easier. It also seems to discourage big burrs because of these properties. Dealing with burrs is easier on waterstones I think.

I think those are the major plus and minus points for these two stone types. Good luck on your decision.

Brian.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of it, but it is interesting that you wrote that feedback is good on diamond plates and not on water stones. I think you are using feedback differently from usual when talking about sharpening on stones. In general most agree that feedback, the feel when sharpening sucks on diamond plates, it is very unpleasant. On the other hand good water stones are a pleasure to sharpen on with creamy feedback, both the feel and the sound are great benefits of quality waterstones. Resin bonded diamond stones bridge the gap somewhat by providing better feedback, closer to water stones and the cutting power of diamonds.
 
You may well be right. I was thinking more along the lines of the abrasive hardness though not so much the size.

Either way, I still wonder about wear on the stone though...?
 
As I understand it the hypothesis is if the abrasive grains are far larger than the carbides they should be able to scoop out chips carbides and all, like a scoop of ice cream with peppermint candy. I think the roughly 35µ grains of the Fine India stone should be able to handle the carbides in CPM steel at moderate volume (CPM S30V), but maybe not the larger carbides in conventional ingot steel. Does this sound right?
 
The heart of the discussion is; that only boride & diamond are hard enough to cut the vanadium carbides. All other sharpening materials grind
away the surrounding matrix and scoop out the vanadium carbides. DM
 
Lots of acronyms and googling some of these suggestions lends to more confusion. what I gather is that the set posted will work well for ALL steels as long as I try not to use the fine stone. My thought is to get the set I posted above and the below DMT for fine work on the S30V and up. how about the larger tri set below and the fine DMT set below and that should cover me across the board.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001MSA72/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A2HCHIE6U0W1ZN&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PVZIA6/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_9?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
 
upstate88 said:
Lots of acronyms and googling some of these suggestions lends to more confusion. what I gather is that the set posted will work well for ALL steels as long as I try not to use the fine stone. My thought is to get the set I posted above and the below DMT for fine work on the S30V and up. how about the larger tri set below and the fine DMT set below and that should cover me across the board.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001MSA72/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A2HCHIE6U0W1ZN&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PVZIA6/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_9?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
Click to expand...
The fine stone in that set will work fine for anything. Doesn't matter the steel. You're only using it for a few swipes after you set the edge with the medium stone anyway. If you wish to get a fine diamond plate get one but it is not necessary. All the vanadium carbides everyone is so worried about are smaller than the grit in those stones so even the diamond aren't going to cut them. S30v is child's play for the tri stone. So is s90v. So is 10v. They cut the steel just fine. Getting it sharp is up to you
 
Also if everyone remembers the edge retention test on 5/8 rope by Anderson he tested both at 6000 grit and 400 grit (silicon carbide moldmaster stones ). I remember some knives getting over 2000 cuts and still able to slice paper. Doesn't sound like diamonds are needed to me. If you want them get them but they're not needed.
I'm not exactly super well known around here so I thought maybe this might help
 
@upstate, I apologize if I added to your confusion. The Norton Tri-Stone kit is an awesome set up. I'd still add a course diamond but it's up you.
 
Last edited:
Mr.Wizard said:
As I understand it the hypothesis is if the abrasive grains are far larger than the carbides they should be able to scoop out chips carbides and all, like a scoop of ice cream with peppermint candy. I think the roughly 35µ grains of the Fine India stone should be able to handle the carbides in CPM steel at moderate volume (CPM S30V), but maybe not the larger carbides in conventional ingot steel. Does this sound right?
Click to expand...

Regarding the India vs. S30V, I wouldn't even consider this stone for this steel. It'll work to a point, in that it still can 'scoop out' material from the steel, including carbides. But after some time, you'll end up with a glazed stone, with the abrasive grit surface (aluminum oxide) being polished by the vanadium carbides. Once it's glazed over, the stone will cease to work with this steel and many other, less wear-resistant steels as well.

My rationale for stating the above is, I once tried aluminum oxide hones (in a Lansky set) for grinding & thinning the edge on an S30V blade. Spent about 6 hours on that job, and finished later on a diamond hone after dishing, glazing and effectively ruining 2 of the AlOx Lansky hones. S30V is right at a threshold where the 4% vanadium creates issues like this. By 'super steel' standards these days, it's not that high. But it's still high enough to make a noticeable difference with anything less than SiC, CBN or diamond for sharpening it.

An India is a nice stone; but it's not really well-suited to something like S30V. The reason diamond is so often recommended, it simply handles the steel WAY, WAY BETTER (cleaner cutting, less burring and little or no additional refinement needed) and with much less time & effort spent.

If you're looking to refine a little bit, substitute a Fine (600) or EF (1200) DMT for the India, which will finish off S30V nicely.
 
Last edited:
Obsessed with Edges Obsessed with Edges
I definitely agree with you an India stone is a poor choice for sharpening these steels. In this case though the sharpening is being done with the med crystolon. The India fine is only being used for final honing. In your example you were reprofiling which those Lansky stones were unsuited. As the final polish though for those last few swipes it would've done fine.
India stones do tend to glaze over especially the fine one. It's what you get with a hard, tough, and smooth binder. They will glaze over even with 1084. A quick lapping with some 50-100 sic loose grit on a flat surface fixed that and you'll barely remove any material from it
With these steels diamond may be the way to go but I just don't like the use of or economy of diamond plates. The India stone may glaze but you can always unglaze it. You can't sharpen diamonds back up when they dull. At that point your $100 plate is a paperweight. My $30 stone still has 50 years of life left
Just one man's opinion
 
Ben Dover said:
it's 4 percent vanadium.

I personally do not consider 4 percent "high" but I guess some folks do.
Click to expand...

Four percent vanadium is generally considered the delineation of transition from "low vanadium" to "high vanadium". Not a hard and fast rule but I think a lot of folks see this as the marker.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top