Do customers choices ever bug you??

Cushing H. said:
If you as maker are concerned about the poor performance of a choice insisted on by a customer, you are free to tell them you can not be responsible for later failures of the product (and to put that in writing)
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I have done this and while you are correct, when it actually happens it feels a little bit like pointing to the fine print, shrugging your shoulders and saying "i told you so" .... this has not proven as a good tactic with custom knives. A big part of the "extra" expense of a custom knife is the knife makers experience and wisdom of the design and material choice.
 
timos- said:
I have done this and while you are correct, when it actually happens it feels a little bit like pointing to the fine print, shrugging your shoulders and saying "i told you so"
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Well ... yes, that is exactly what you would be doing. Again, business versus craft.

timos- said:
this has not proven as a good tactic with custom knives. A big part of the "extra" expense of a custom knife is the knife makers experience and wisdom of the design and material choice.
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I understand and agree. But when a customer absolutely refuses to listen to that experience and wisdom ... what do you do? Again, I am only recommending that a conscious decision be made ... not necessarily one based on emotion. Refusing to do something because you view it as too great a potential risk to your reputation is, I think, a very defensible decision (I am truly not sure how much NOT putting your mark on the product would shield you......)
 
Cushing,
You are looking at this as a business decision. Custom knives are not a business decision ( or there would be almost none of them) because custom knives are rarely done by a business. The people in the business of custom knives have to protect their "maker value". These are Randall and other "custom" knife factories.

If I had a customer ask for W2 katana at Rc65 I could make that. But, it would break at the first good impact or bad cut. Just making the customer sign a paper absolving me of any liability will not prevent the customer breaking the sword in a tatami cut and saying before all the onlookers, "Dang! I just paid Stacy $1000 to make this sword. What a piece of crap!" The only way to assure that situation does not happen is to not make the sword in the improper specifications. A little education of the optimal hardness and edge angle will instruct the customer for a better choice and a happier cutting result.

The average individual knifemaker who sells custom knives has his reputation at stake with every knife he hands over to the customer. Just telling the customer, or writing the problem down, won't make the issue any less of a problem. The way to deal with it is by EDUCATING the customer as to why one choice is bad and another is better. I have had requests to make knives from odd materials many times. Often the customer says, "Oh, I won't really be using the knife for anything." But that isn't a sufficient reason to make an inferior knife. I explain that I cam make the knife so it is both beautiful and usable with the right materials.

As to the OP's problem, you may not be aware of how poor of a handle material the new acrylic handle materials are. Watching FIF will give you an idea of how weak they are. They look amazing and grind/sand/polish easily ... but they wear down and get ugly with even minimal use. Breakage is so easy yo have to look at it sideways to avoid breaking the handle with t]your stare. I am constantly amazed that the knife suppliers sell so much of it and the internet is filled with the stuff. I have tried several types and brands, and haven't found one that I considered durable enough for a knife that will get used.
There are many laminates that look just as good and are much more durable.
I am currently experimenting with the pictorial laminates that can be had with any image you want ($100 bill, nudes, hunting scenes, etc.). The image goes all the way through the scale, so grinding and shaping keeps the same image view. I will see how the resin used in laminating these holds up to use.
 
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yes several times i had customers wanting poor quality handle materials, (acrylic pearl, plexiglass, wood from their dads old house, ebay partially stabilized wood and one guy wanted me to engrave the name of a band on the handle :rolleyes: ) i had to explain why i did not want to do it and suggest other materials.
 
I have no problem telling a customer that I don't work with a particular material and reccomend other options.
I don't use kydex because I dont have the equipment and I'm not interested in building it.
I don't use bone or stag because I don't yet have the experience with that material...yet.
I don't use acrylic because I don't care for it.
As for color choices, doesn't make a bit of difference to me.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I am currently experimenting with the pictorial laminates that can be had with any image you want ($100 bill, nudes, hunting scenes, etc.). The image goes all the way through the scale, so grinding and shaping keeps the same image view. I will see how the resin used in laminating these holds up to use.
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Looking forward to reading more about this
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
You are looking at this as a business decision. Custom knives are not a business decision ( or there would be almost none of them) because custom knives are rarely done by a business. The people in the business of custom knives have to protect their "maker value". These are Randall and other "custom" knife factories
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Stacy - please, I am not personally looking at this in any particular way or advocating anything - and I did say I was being intentionally challenging and asking questions in order to challenge (and uncover) unstated assumptions. I think your quote (just above) is likely one of the most enlightening of this entire thread: if the core value proposition in custom knife making lies in an individuals ability to create (and protect) the individuality and quality of their product, then by all means do what you need to do to protect that. As I have said before, my only recommendation (if anything at all) is that it is likely better in the long run to be conscious and aware of that value proposition and what you need to do to keep it.
 
If the knife has my maker mark, there are things I'm not willing to do, no matter what the customer says, wants or pays. And yes, my main income comes from knives.

Pablo
 
Thanks for all the feedback! I’m sorta with Stacy, my earlier work (I wore a suit for 25 years before we sold and I left the industry running a huge company and had little time but hobby black smithed as always was a history and arms buff) as I’ve only been making knives for a few years I just stamped BMF if at all.

I’ve improved a lot though I’d like to say and took a university course on metallurgy. Now my customers (as at first I almost gave the them away) now tell me I should charge more. I’m be had a fair bit of repeat business from hunters and chefs. I don’t want someone to be using my knife and drop it and the handle shatters! Not with my name on it anyway....I certainly get that business is business and you can explain this to a customer but I’m trying to improve my name in the custom market, not add 5 bodies and pump out milled knives for purely profit!

what bothers me I guess is that some customers don’t listen, they see something they like (in this case the colours resemble the Canadian flag colours so that’s why he wants it and figures he’s not planning on dropping it) and they want you to do that. Knowing many of the ups and downs now it sometimes bothers me that I’m going to put a substandard handle (I don’t have an updated pic but now that I’ve polished further this is a nice piece with a very nice Hamon) in my opinion on a quality made blade....

That’s where my head was at when I posted and was curious how others deal with it. I already agreed to put this handle on for him so I can’t back track now but in future I’ll be more forceful and explain the ups and downs better, and why I wouldn’t want to do this!
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Cushing,
You are looking at this as a business decision. Custom knives are not a business decision ( or there would be almost none of them) because custom knives are rarely done by a business. The people in the business of custom knives have to protect their "maker value". These are Randall and other "custom" knife factories.

If I had a customer ask for W2 katana at Rc65 I could make that. But, it would break at the first good impact or bad cut. Just making the customer sign a paper absolving me of any liability will not prevent the customer breaking the sword in a tatami cut and saying before all the onlookers, "Dang! I just paid Stacy $1000 to make this sword. What a piece of crap!" The only way to assure that situation does not happen is to not make the sword in the improper specifications. A little education of the optimal hardness and edge angle will instruct the customer for a better choice and a happier cutting result.

The average individual knifemaker who sells custom knives has his reputation at stake with every knife he hands over to the customer. Just telling the customer, or writing the problem down, won't make the issue any less of a problem. The way to deal with it is by EDUCATING the customer as to why one choice is bad and another is better. I have had requests to make knives from odd materials many times. Often the customer says, "Oh, I won't really be using the knife for anything." But that isn't a sufficient reason to make an inferior knife. I explain that I cam make the knife so it is both beautiful and usable with the right materials.

As to the OP's problem, you may not be aware of how poor of a handle material the new acrylic handle materials are. Watching FIF will give you an idea of how weak they are. They look amazing and grind/sand/polish easily ... but they wear down and get ugly with even minimal use. Breakage is so easy yo have to look at it sideways to avoid breaking the handle with t]your stare. I am constantly amazed that the knife suppliers sell so much of it and the internet is filled with the stuff. I have tried several types and brands, and haven't found one that I considered durable enough for a knife that will get used.
There are many laminates that look just as good and are much more durable.
I am currently experimenting with the pictorial laminates that can be had with any image you want ($100 bill, nudes, hunting scenes, etc.). The image goes all the way through the scale, so grinding and shaping keeps the same image view. I will see how the resin used in laminating these holds up to use.
Click to expand...

Thanks Stacy think you hit the nail on the head here...also interested how this new material your working with does....be nice to put images on the handle too...
 
David W Babcock said:
...I’m trying to improve my name in the custom market, not add 5 bodies and pump out milled knives for purely profit!

what bothers me I guess is that some customers don’t listen, they see something they like... and they want you to do that. Knowing many of the ups and downs now it sometimes bothers me that I’m going to put a substandard handle (I don’t have an updated pic but now that I’ve polished further this is a nice piece with a very nice Hamon) in my opinion on a quality made blade....
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At the risk of beating a dead horse .... again, I am not advocating any particular position, rather just just indicating that there is a choice to be made, with benefits and risks on either side. David - I appreciate the corner you felt yourself backed in to ... but it sounds to me, with your improved skills, improved results, and wish to improve your "name", that you have actually already made your decision re. customer requests like this - you just need to learn to be comfortable with it????
 
I always thought it was funny when Bob Loveless would say " A customer asks me to put stag on a knife and I ask him why would you want an inferior material on a superior knife"

Now that is funny stuff. In reality ivory, pearl etc are all inferior materials and we use them all the time.

Never make anything you do not want to.
 
I don't make knives but I do other things and when I'm ask to use things of lower quality then I would use. Is simply tell the customer that's not a material available to use. Not that it can't be obtained or purchased. it's just not available from me. What they decide to do after they receive the product is upto them. If that means I don't do that job, well then I probably just saved myself a big fat headache. Lowering my standards to suit a client's taste ( in your case needs in mine) has never panned out well for me.
 
David W Babcock said:
I already agreed to put this handle on for him so I can’t back track now
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Can't you contact him and inform him that after thinking about it, and doing some research, you found out that acrylic handles are crap and that you'd rather do something else?
 
If someone wants the Canadian flag colors, why not go a notch.

Here is what Mental Co. CARVex is:
#CARVex is a graphic paper micarta which is shape-able without losing the image. Made up of 35+ graphic prints stabilized in epoxy resin using the VP5 process. The VP5 process consists of 5 steps of manufacturing. Vacuum stabilization and
pressure curing are combined with physical compression

4X6X1/4" scale material
Canada_1_370x.jpg


American Flag ( set of scales)

afw_370x.png


American Skull:

americanskull_180x.png


2nd Ammendment gun grips of knife handle:
ac4cb7966997d988a13e29af122510f1
 
I think it's whatever you and the customer agree upon, for each individual project. Make it as win-win as possible.
 
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