Do makers keep thier HT secret from their customers and other makers?

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petah

Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
1,597
I've been on the forums for many years now and I have followed this particular subfourm since 2008. I have seen the rise and fall of many. I've come to realise that transparency is a very good and it only betters the industry but is my thinking right?

I had a custom on order from a maker that was very secretive of his treating process yet said is was the industry standard. After some reading and emailing (thank you Stacy) I have canceled the order.

Is it too much or not polite to ask about the HT procress on a prospective commision? Is it not a selling point? beyond the artisty in making a knife the science of HT seems to be Extremely important!!
 
If they can't or won't explain their process, there is a reason for it and its doubtful its because its a trade secret. They should still be able to give a basic outline of their process to ensure the customer understand the quality of the product. Ive had people ask how I do it and why don't I use reclaimed steel (as some other makers in the area do) and Im quite happy to explain why. An informed customer is usually a repeat customer.
 
Some are secretive but I find that the vast majority share knowledge freely. Personally, I share knowledge with other makers all the time and am willing to answer any question a customer may have.
 
if most knifemakers kept secrets, i would not know 60% of what i have learned. therefore i tell anyone who asks me exactly how i do it.
 
Isn't this an odd way to interpret capitalism?
I think, it's reasonable & at-will to share industry/community ht process when they are not giving competitor your competitive advantage. Spyderco/BM/Kai/etc.. none of them are going to share their ht process/recipe. This board is a great platform for share; discuss; troubleshoot; etc... ht & science of it. Understanding about what(s) and some why(s) could help improve one's ht approach (the 'how' part). Those without their own proprietary ht recipe can use community recipe.
 
Hmm, interesting concept. You can easily find a HT recipe for just about every steel imaginable that would produce 90% or better of the best possible qualities of the steel. I find it unlikely that anyone's "secret HT recipe" is significantly different than anything you could find on google.
 
Its interesting I agree, I mentioned in passing the word "Cryogenic freeze" to one of our tooling reps. He gave me that funny look like it was some kinda secret lol. These forums are great for finding stuff out like Bluntcut says but in the industry these things seem to be very much proprietary.
 
IMO, the unfettered sharing of "trade secrets" in the knife game can be traced right back to the front door of Bill Moran and the other early ABS guys. Mr. Moran's attitude seemed to be that he would give you all of that info and if you could make a better knife than he was making, then good for you and good for the custom knife biz. With that said, some info is still kept pretty close to the vest. For example, it is difficult to find the same type of information for making stainless damascus that can be found all over the place for its carbon steel counterpart. With that said, we still get new and valuable info very frequently. Just recently, Devin Thomas clued us in to his particular method for heat treating AEB-L and that was what some consider to be a "trade secret" as he had nailed it. :thumb: On the other hand, some of the claims of "super secret proprietary heat treatment methods" by some production companies are laughable at times, Yeah, I REALLY want your secret process that will allow me to harden a 1095 knife to 56-57 Rc. Do you want my wife or my firstborn male child in exchange for that? :D
 
I have found all of my heat treating recipes on the internet . I buy some odd size steels from Alpha and he usually has a link or a few side notes regarding the steel based on his knowledge or others in the industries. I Believe Bob Dozier wont give out his "secret" to D2 and I say "so what" I have found D2 to be a easy steel to heat treat . This stuff is not rocket science . I have a good heat treat oven and I invested in a Hardness testers and some aluminum plates. I spent few bucks on getting Parks and some other oils . You will learn tricks that help you along the way...But the only way a lot of this knowledge is going to be retained is by actually doing it.

If I could give a newer guy any advice it would be this... Don't be afraid to screw up .. have confidence in your ability . Learn how to do one steel well , Time after time with with consistant results .. Then move on to another .


So good for you on moving on .. I don't really care who the maker is . Lots of makers think they are the only one who can do this right or others don't think anyone but the big companies can do this which is complete nonsense .
 
I won't disclose my D2 ht recipe either since it took 3+ yrs & cost a bunch to come up with it.

Here is a micrograph of D2 & 4V. *note: D2 absence of MC with dia 4+um, while 4V shows plenty of much larger MC

YRnUQmg.jpg


BCMW D2 65rc Jest Bolo/Chopper chopping test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31QhteR1SMA

In private or public, I willing to help analyze/discuss/trouble-shoot other's ht recipe where results fall short or seek improvement. All that in yours context/ht_recipe.

Without a competitive advantage, $15+/hr makers are at huge disadvantage against $1/hr makers in foreign countries. High volume production certain will bury small custom makers - if their ht as good or better than us. CNC & 3D printer will starve the artistic (F&F) angle with precision and repeatability at lower cost. Good to be paranoid & cautious in business :foot:
 
Due to the overwhelming amount of wealth:rolleyes: to be won in this business, it's smart to keep your top secret processes as closed as possible. I prefer to use decoy and diversion tactics to throw all the communist, trade secret stealing, bloodsucking, leeches off my trail.:D

As a very wise and successful bladesmith once stated on this forum, "there is no competition"........I won't mention the smiths name, but he has a cat with an awesome green helmet, and a warehouse full of some of the best ivory on the planet!:D

Darcy
 
Every knifemaker who's work has really impressed me and I've asked questions has freely answered and shared their hard earned knowledge with me. A few examples; a while back there were a lot of AEBL questions and Devin Thomas took it upon himself to share his exact heat treat process which had a few steps I had never heard folks doing. Another example, just recently I spent a week with Kevin Cashen and before I did I went through his website and work and wrote down a bunch of questions. From how he inlayed gold flowers, to heat bluing his steel and heat treating recipes, he was an open book. A fantastic example of the willingness of other smiths to help less experienced folks out. That watermelon cat guy even helped me by answering a bunch of questions when I bought my power hammer. The knifemaking community is full of some genuinely good people. I have taken note and will continue this tradition!

To the OP if you asked someone their heat treat process and they refused to tell you anything its probably because they either don't know what they are doing or are using a trash burner or something they shouldn't and I would steer clear of their work personally.

-Clint
 
Being secretive of "industry standards" makes little sense to me, and would probably raise some red flags in certain cases.

I'll also admit that I'm on the high side of skeptical whenever I hear of a maker who claims to have a "proprietary heat treat" (or steel, or quenchant) that they've invented, created, discovered, come up with, divined, or otherwise fabricated.
Metallurgy is metallurgy. Yes, there are ways to optimize a given steel for a particular task or geometry, and certain methods are not as mainstream as others (marquenching, for example), but I seriously doubt that anybody is making any new and undocumented discoveries when it comes to knife making related metallurgical practices.

I'm not saying that having a moderate understanding of metallurgy won't give an advantage to your end product (if utilized correctly), or that certain makers' knives don't perform better than others who use the same steel, based primarily on heat treat alone, BUT, I think a lot of this "proprietary" speak is a little bit more of a marketing buzzword than anything, more often than not.

Now, I may be wrong, and if anybody wants to PM me your proprietary heat treat methods, quenchants, or steel formulas, I'm more than happy to give them an independent, third party, unbiased review, and get back to you with the results. :D
 
I've heard a couple of references to Devin Thomas. Can somebody link me to a thread outlining his heat treat?
 
petah said:
I had a custom on order from a maker that was very secretive of his treating process yet said is was the industry standard. After some reading and emailing (thank you Stacy) I have canceled the order.
Click to expand...

I would have cancelled it too.

The HT procedure for virtually any steel is public knowledge.
 
I think sharing and helping is what I love most about the knife maker community. I would not be where I am with out the help of others. Yes you can figure out alot by your self but it allways helps to have some advise. Also just because you know how somthing is done does not mean you have the skill to recreate it.

About your order, I would also be cautious because you really don't know what or how he is heat treating if. If it was green cat hat guy ;) you know it's good but if it's someone with no reputation then you don't know. He might be sticking it in a fire pit and quenching in old motor oil.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, wait what am I saying yes that's wrong lol. As a custom maker we owe our customers the best quality we can produce and if your heat treat involves a fire pit maybe you should not be selling these knives or at least giving FULL discloser as to your process.
 
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I've found a lot of makers will gladly give out their HT information. Sometimes, I don't feel right asking though. Especially if I know they've invested a good amount of time, energy, or money into it. I'd LOVE to ask Nathan Carothers what his recipe for 3v is but I just kind of feel like I shouldn't.
 
when i first started out learning about knives there was no internet and most makers i met along the way in those days had their "secrets" on one thing or another that they wouldn't share, whether it was HT, polishing or any number of things... and a lot of makers made a lot of junk in those days. Since then, the forums and internet info has exploded and you see the results... amateur makers today making knives that would blow a lot of the pros out of the water from the "good old days". IMHO all of the improvements we have all made is due to shared info and passing on these trade secrets. maybe not 9 times out of 10, but a lot of times i bet, most "secrets" stay that way because the person is scared of people finding out exactly how "normal" the process is. then again, as we have seen, some companies do quite well with secrets... but nobody is learning a thing from them.
 
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