Do makers keep thier HT secret from their customers and other makers?

RustyRazor I do t know what your talking about. I learned a lot from the kokusaka at cold steel.

Kokusaka is trademarked by Trent the blacksmith
 
JTknives said:
RustyRazor I do t know what your talking about. I learned a lot from the kokusaka at cold steel.

Kokusaka is trademarked by Trent the blacksmith
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Ha! that's exactly it... I got sucked in by that kind of "carbon V" and elaborate claims of secret this or proprietary that back in those days too. before the internet it was harder to find truths in most things that were niche areas like knifemaking and that made the magic of elusive advertising in those days do things it just can't anymore.
 
Marko3 said:
I have found all of my heat treating recipes on the internet . I buy some odd size steels from Alpha and he usually has a link or a few side notes regarding the steel based on his knowledge or others in the industries. I Believe Bob Dozier wont give out his "secret" to D2 and I say "so what" I have found D2 to be a easy steel to heat treat . This stuff is not rocket science . I have a good heat treat oven and I invested in a Hardness testers and some aluminum plates. I spent few bucks on getting Parks and some other oils . You will learn tricks that help you along the way...But the only way a lot of this knowledge is going to be retained is by actually doing it.

If I could give a newer guy any advice it would be this... Don't be afraid to screw up .. have confidence in your ability . Learn how to do one steel well , Time after time with with consistant results .. Then move on to another .


So good for you on moving on .. I don't really care who the maker is . Lots of makers think they are the only one who can do this right or others don't think anyone but the big companies can do this which is complete nonsense .
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Marko, the following rant is not directed specifically to you, but I'm glad you brought up Bob Dozier and his D2 recipe because it's a great example for this discussion. And D2 is a great material to discuss for this subject because it's a tool and die steel that's used in cutlery and has a reputation for "takes a lousy edge and holds it forever" but can actually be a very good performer. And a lot of you knuckleheads wouldn't even know the difference. :o

Do you think D2 is easy to heat treat? It is not rocket science? Well, it is easy to get it hard, that's true. Do you think your D2 that is done from a "recipe you found on the internet" performs like Dozier's? Have you tried it? How do you know?

I have tried Dozier's D2. It's not hype.

You makers need to acquire some good standards to compare your work to and develop decent testing procedures to discern differences. Many of you guys don't even control your edge geometry to within a few degrees which has a real effect on edge behavior, meaning a lot of you are not even capable of discerning a difference. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, that's a just a real and true statement. And if that's how you roll, that's fine. But then your opinion on this subject isn't based on much.

I'm here to say that most of you guys who say the industry standard heat treat for these steels is always the right approach for a cutlery application, there is no real difference between that and an optimized HT don't know what you're talking about and you know you don't know what you're talking about.

And if someone reading this is offend by that, I'm sorry. But, if it applies to you, here's a link that discussed the Dunning–Kruger effect, I suggest you read about it and think about how this concept may apply to you and your "knowledge" about heat treat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject that irritates me. Many professional makers invest a lot into getting performance everywhere they can get it. And it kills me when a group of amateurs come in here and dismiss that work as BS. This isn't facebook or YouTube, this is Shoptalk.
 
Nathan,

The other side of this, is that MANY companies and some makers would have you believe that what they are doing is sorcery, a dark art us mere mortals could never hope to understand let alone achieve. When in reality, they are making mediocre knives and using marketing hype to try for way above mediocre prices. I get what you are saying of course, and I know there is no way I'm getting better by thinking I'm already the best. An honest assessment of your skill set is the starting point to improvement, IMHO. Like it or not, this is an open forum, and while much better then youtube or Facebook, it is advisable to don your BS filtering respirator before entering.
 
Nathan's entirely correct.

ENTIRELY.


In the immortal words of Smoky from the movie 'Friday', "you didn't put IN on this, mayunnn!!!"
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Marko, the following rant is not directed specifically to you, but I'm glad you brought up Bob Dozier and his D2 recipe because it's a great example for this discussion. And D2 is a great material to discuss for this subject because it's a tool and die steel that's used in cutlery and has a reputation for "takes a lousy edge and holds it forever" but can actually be a very good performer. And a lot of you knuckleheads wouldn't even know the difference. :o

Do you think D2 is easy to heat treat? It is not rocket science? Well, it is easy to get it hard, that's true. Do you think your D2 that is done from a "recipe you found on the internet" performs like Dozier's? Have you tried it? How do you know?

I have tried Dozier's D2. It's not hype.

You makers need to acquire some good standards to compare your work to and develop decent testing procedures to discern differences. Many of you guys don't even control your edge geometry to within a few degrees which has a real effect on edge behavior, meaning a lot of you are not even capable of discerning a difference. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, that's a just a real and true statement. And if that's how you roll, that's fine. But then your opinion on this subject isn't based on much.

I'm here to say that most of you guys who say the industry standard heat treat for these steels is always the right approach for a cutlery application, there is no real difference between that and an optimized HT don't know what you're talking about and you know you don't know what you're talking about.

And if someone reading this is offend by that, I'm sorry. But, if it applies to you, here's a link that discussed the Dunning–Kruger effect, I suggest you read about it and think about how this concept may apply to you and your "knowledge" about heat treat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject that irritates me. Many professional makers invest a lot into getting performance everywhere they can get it. And it kills me when a group of amateurs come in here and dismiss that work as BS. This isn't facebook or YouTube, this is Shoptalk.
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Nathan's comments are too good not to quote.

How many knifemakers buy knives and do comparison tests their own knives. We are continually testing factory and custom knives. Devin's name has been mentioned several times in this thread. Buy an AEB-L kitchen knife and test it. Don't let your wife use it or you will not get it back! Buy a knife from Nathan and Bob Dozier and test them against your knives. The results may surprise you.

Chuck
 
Just to clarify. I agree with all of what Nathan said and have learned, and will continue to learn from him and others like him on this board who know WAY more than I do. I am just offering my take on why so many with little experience often question those with much experience. The more you dig into this thing, the more you find out what you don't know. Often you also find out that what others you thought of as knowledgeable are blowing smoke. So you can kind of see the cycle there. We know the blind leading the blind is bad, but without a lot of knowledge or experience, it is difficult to figure out who the blind are. Kind of a catch 22. I think we can all agree that knife making at a quality level is a VERY steep learning curve. Figuring out who to listen to is tough.
 
My understanding of the question posed by the OP was about makers claiming extraordinary attributes or processes that they call secret, when their results, product, or material used does not bear this out.

If someone claims he has a secret process to harden lawn mower blades to Rockwell 70, I would call it a ridiculous claim, and ask him to show me proof and/or tell me how he managed to do something that defies metallurgy. He will likely reply that only he knows how to do it, it is his secret, I would steal his secret, and I am a fool for asking him about it.

This is far different from a person like Nathan or Bob Dozier, who spends years working on a single steel fine tuning his HT or other process. Such people have not created new metallurgy, or new science. They have only refined it and maybe put a new twist on it. While they may wish to keep thus process to themselves, they would not likely claim it to be an unknown miracle process or that it gets results ridiculously higher than ever possible in the steel before now.
If they want to protect their proprietary process, that is absolutely fine ... but they are not the subject we are discussing. Many of these people share a lot of their testing and process. The fine details may be kept close to the chest.

Some of these folks give the knifemaking equivalent of changing lead into gold in their shops. Secret or not, that isn't possible in the natural world.

Some of the claims that I take issue with are:
"I get my steel three times as hard as everyone else does ... it is a secret." (They provide no actual hardness test with that claim)

"I have my anvil facing north, and quench the same way to make the blade to get harder. I have developed this method through years of practice. You can't get the same results because you don't know my secret."

"I have a secret quenchant that gets much better results than Parks #50." ( offers no test results of his blades)

"My blades don't need a temper because my secret quenchant makes them tougher than everyone else's blades." ( No proof offered)

"I HT my stainless blades in my forge and quench in water to get super fine grain and harder blades than anyone else. I am the only one who can do this ... it is a secret. "

And the best of all - The fellow who used to sell the Pakistani damascus blades and claimed he made them by hand in his BBQ on his back porch. He claimed they did not need a HT because the secret way he forged them came out hard. (My examination of several blades made me feel they were made primarily from mild steel, and were around Rc 50-52.)
 
If people are going to make extraordinary claims then they need to provide the extraordinary evidence for those claims.

Talk is cheap and making a video in your garage or yard does not cut it , pun intended.

Ranting is not impressive, unbiased double blind testing of multiple samples is.

So many people shout what is and what is not possible and when asked for proof either way....crickets and the thread dies.
 
AVigil said:
If people are going to make extraordinary claims then they need to provide the extraordinary evidence for those claims.

Talk is cheap and making a video in your garage or yard does not cut it , pun intended.

Ranting is not impressive, unbiased double blind testing of multiple samples is.

So many people shout what is and what is not possible and when asked for proof either way....crickets and the thread dies.
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wait... are the crickets for your post or the thread idea in general? I find it funny that i think most people here actually would agree on almost everything the other is saying if you were to ask direct questions... BUT, it seems like people are arguing two different camps.

Yes... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. People making up smoke and mirrors with no proof = BAD

and

Yes... people who take those industry standard HT recipes and painstakingly fine tune them with trial and error and decide to keep some of those tweaks to themselves (because you didn't do one thing to help them achieve those impressive gains) and having every right to do so = good.

I wouldn't expect Mr. Thomas to ever share his AEB-L HT he perfected with me... but i'd be damn glad if he did, since i can't experiment with all of them (and i've got 3 bars of it coming from Aldo as of two days ago)
 
Smoke and mirrors applies to everyone who makes claims and yet they are not substantiated.

If a claim is made that a certain HT regime produces superior product then that would be very easy to demonstrate by double blind study.

Sometimes the secret a knifemaker has is not knowing others are doing the same thing.

Using proven methods is preferred. Worrying about some secret knowledge typically ends up being not as impressive as they want you to believe.

It is marketing.
 
I will clarify a little. The maker used s110v a steel that I dont really trust as a steel yet as it really isn't used often enough. I was told industry standard HT. I was sent photos of the process he used and was shocked to see a steel blank that looked extremely pitted after the HT. I inquired and he stated that he sent one blade many years ago to have analyzed and was happy with the test result. From what I have read about s110v it needs an extremely exacting HT. The photos & what was said didn't add up.

Now, if the maker told me he had tested many blades and was confident in his process I wouldnt pry but the photos didnt make sense to me. He never stated that he tested his blades.

I wasn't asking about the finer details I was only asking about the process. I canceled the order and told the maker that I would pay for this knife, pay to get tested throughly and then analyzed at a lab. He declined and said I was trying to steal trade secrets... Industry standard? What Was I trying to steal? He never told me the procress...

Makers like Dozer et al. that have perfected their treatment and have proof I have no issues with. They invested heavily in to their reputation. I would never ask... That is all.
 
One of the best posts EVER!!!
Nathan the Machinist said:
Marko, the following rant is not directed specifically to you, but I'm glad you brought up Bob Dozier and his D2 recipe because it's a great example for this discussion. And D2 is a great material to discuss for this subject because it's a tool and die steel that's used in cutlery and has a reputation for "takes a lousy edge and holds it forever" but can actually be a very good performer. And a lot of you knuckleheads wouldn't even know the difference. :o

Do you think D2 is easy to heat treat? It is not rocket science? Well, it is easy to get it hard, that's true. Do you think your D2 that is done from a "recipe you found on the internet" performs like Dozier's? Have you tried it? How do you know?

I have tried Dozier's D2. It's not hype.

You makers need to acquire some good standards to compare your work to and develop decent testing procedures to discern differences. Many of you guys don't even control your edge geometry to within a few degrees which has a real effect on edge behavior, meaning a lot of you are not even capable of discerning a difference. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, that's a just a real and true statement. And if that's how you roll, that's fine. But then your opinion on this subject isn't based on much.

I'm here to say that most of you guys who say the industry standard heat treat for these steels is always the right approach for a cutlery application, there is no real difference between that and an optimized HT don't know what you're talking about and you know you don't know what you're talking about.

And if someone reading this is offend by that, I'm sorry. But, if it applies to you, here's a link that discussed the Dunning–Kruger effect, I suggest you read about it and think about how this concept may apply to you and your "knowledge" about heat treat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Sorry for the rant, but this is a subject that irritates me. Many professional makers invest a lot into getting performance everywhere they can get it. And it kills me when a group of amateurs come in here and dismiss that work as BS. This isn't facebook or YouTube, this is Shoptalk.
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We have to be grateful for the start up help we all recieved from the people who shared their knowledge with us, that's why we should continue ourselves our journey and support other people. There is nothing to loose in that, only to gain.
Sharing the knowledge is in my case a great opprtunity to give back, but it is absolutely not something to be considered as due.

If you arev getting a pie you may ask for the ingredients (you may have allergies) but it is up to the chef to decide if you are so cute she wish to pass on you her recepit. :)
 
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Alpha Knife Supply said:
How many knifemakers buy knives and do comparison tests their own knives. Buy a knife from Nathan and Bob Dozier and test them against your knives. The results may surprise you.

Chuck
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I did :-) - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1397540-sharp-knife-correlation-(possibly)

petah said:
Is it too much or not polite to ask about the HT procress on a prospective commision? Is it not a selling point? beyond the artisty in making a knife the science of HT seems to be Extremely important!!
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It's not too much at all, it is a selling point.
I share mine freely, I learned it from someone else, and others in this community have always shared freely.
 
There are 3 reasons that come to me right off the bat.

A: In some cases, especially if it's an up-and-coming maker, it may be that they're only secretive because the "trade secret" penchant of advice has been force fed to them by dozens of non-knifemakers in their circle, especially when talking about the craft from a pure business perspective.
B: Others might be proud of having eventually figured things out on their own, make their process a little unique and very personal.

I'm proud to say that this trade is one that clearly shares information openly, master and greenhorn alike, and with all of the misinformation and hype out there, being open about the process helps the trade, I believe. Knifemaking would only suffer if we all had "mean girl" syndrome, being tight lipped saboteurs around each other. If that were the case, I think there would be very few new makers who kept learning and growing, and even less public exposure.

C: The only other reason I can think of that anyone would be so secretive has already been mentioned by rustyrazor; the secret may be that their wares are "secretly" junk.
 
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