Do they still hunt lions and tigers anymore?

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GREENJACKET writes of lion hunting:
Best practices:
If you are going for a cat then, to me, there is a right way and a wrong way. The etiquet is to do it on foot and earn it. Leopard may mean a high seat for some very long nights. Patroling an area by vehicle is a crap way. For big cats are not particularly difficult to kill.
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This is, on foot that is, understood to be the "sporting way" to take a lion. Often it requires days of tracking spoor, requiring a very fit hunter.

Sure, you can mount a .30-cal machine gun on a Land Rover and just spray the pride--but that is not hunting, that is extermination (not to mention highly illegal). It bears mentioning that getting caught poaching will get you culled in most parts of Africa.

A cape Buffalo, now that is one tough, scarry beast.
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Peter Capstick, superb writer and former-professional hunter, said that Mbogo (sp?, the Cape Buffalo) is the one animal which exudes hate--and will literally trample your remains into pulp should he get a hold of you.

Scarry beast, indeed.
 
Robert F. Jones (who I mentioned above) wrote an excellent bit of fiction on hunting the Cape Buffalo entitled The Diamond Bogo. Out of Print, but recommended.
 
Look guys,I didn`t mean to insult my fellow knifeknuts.I just happened to see this post very late at night,while my baby redhaired cat was purring next to me and I kinda snapped.I heard Michael Savage(a very conservative radio host) a few weeks on the radio saying that he would kill someone trying to kill a dog or a cat to prevent them from doing it.I have no problem with hunting in general as long as it`s for food like ducks or deer.But cats,elephants,dogs,bears are different.It`s killing for the sake of killing.Koreans eat dog,what dog owner is not outraged?As for macho stuff,I think those tree-hugging,Rosie O`Donnel watching women who go in a lion cage to feed them,some unarmed by the way,are more macho than some hunters.
 
Subject near and dear.
Ethical hunting is conservation in action. Funds from sporthunting/fishing is a major sorce of revenu for for many natural resource depts.Of course there are bad apples involved in canned hunts and other illegal activties, just like anything else in the world. The worst of these are the ones who deal in the illegal trade in wildlife be it ivory,fur, species at risk in the form of birds&reptiles smuggled as pets etc..These are the photos that you see the anti-hunting movement portraying as "hunters" shooting down a herd of elephants for thier tusks. The sad part is is that oft time the people recrutited for this are the local citizens who are hunters who have a tradition of hunting as a method of actually putting food on the table and this skill is being exploited by criminals in exchange for minimal $$$ to the local when the criminal will make huge amounts on the black market for the illegal product. Fact; after the illgeal drug trade the trade in illgeal trade in wildlife is the largest blackmarket well exceeding the illegal arms market.
Since the world can no longer support the use of our natural resources in a purely subsitence form i.e we have way to many people for the amount left for this due to the encrochment of the non-subsitence users ( read suburbs,farms,ranches,cities) would it not make sense to gainfully emply these people as legitimate aids to pro-hunters and resource agencies to use their skills to assist the valid sportsman in the lawful taking of a game trophy? Generally the meat of any large edible animal in Africa goes to the local residents and is also consumed by the hunt party.
Anyway lost my train of thought.
A Johnson - any companies you know in Canada that are offering spear hunts for bear - drop me a line I'm interested.
 
John-

Apology accepted. And, in a reciprical manner, I hope you understand I mean no personal offense in rebutting your statements. I only hope to you permit me to enlighten your bias with factual data.

JG wrote:
I have no problem with hunting in general as long as it`s for food like ducks or deer.But cats,elephants,dogs,bears are different.
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This statement above is still showing an abundance of irrationality towards the subject of hunting.

Just like ducks and deer, the meat/hides from the cats and elephants harvested in Africa (and bears in No. America/Canada), I assure you, are all consumed. If you weren't aware, starving Africans are not terribly selective on the meat put on the table. Bear meat is considered a delicacy in some circles.

BTW, is there some essential difference between ducks/deer vs. cats/elephants/bears? Its puzzlig that you approve the hunting of some species over others--as if you are blessed with a divine ability to categorize game and non-game animals.

Dogs, I grant you, have been domesticated to a much greater degree than any of the other animals, and have found a warm place in the human psyche. So I understand your need to put them off-limits to hunting. Regardless, no sportsmen or Government-sanctioned body I know of hunts dogs--not even hyenas (as they provide a needed scavenger service in the cycle of life). Maybe dingos in the Australian outback? But, I'll reserve judgment on that until I've got more facts on their menace.

It`s killing for the sake of killing.
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Patently untrue on all acounts with respect to legal/sanctioned hunting. The meat is consumed, the hides harvested, and even if it weren't so--the culling is still required to maintain the population at a sustainable level.

I don't understand how anti-hunters can make statements such as this even after being presented with factual data to the contrary--unless it is strictly for the purposes of propogating false propaganda to further their political aims.
 
I`m one of those cat fanatics that would stare at a can of cat food with a pretty cat pic on it.I do think they are divine animals,especially the big ones(In ancient Egypt they tore to pieces those that even accidentally killed cats).Why kill them?Just because you can get away with that?I can rob old ladies at night and get away with that,but it`s just not an honorable thing to do.Even if it`s legal why would anybody want to kill an unquestionably beautiful,powerful and rare animal?I think there is an underlying pathology here.I was a good shot many years ago and want to get back to shooting,but here in NYC you need to know God to get a licence.There are other thing to shoot for Christ`sake.Become a mercenary,a bounty-hunter,look for Bin-Laden.It`s true that Africans eat elephants,monkeys etc.But they pratice cannibalism to this day,so we don`t need to imitate them in every way.There is a difference between cats/dogs and ducks/deer, people don`t eat cats and dogs unless they are starving.A financier comes to Africa and spends 100000 on a lion kill not because he`s starving but because he is,forgive me,a degenerate.
 
JG-

I'm sorry, but I can no longer debate this topic with you.

You have shown now shown a repeated inability to make factual and rational arguments. Arguing that somehow hunting is akin to robbing old ladies is simply parading your ignorance and an example of your emotionally-charged, irrational arguments.

Become a mercenary instead? Equating cannibalism? Fictional degenerate financiers spending $100K for a hunt?

Despite your probable good intentions, your anti-hunting arguments hurt your cause (and your own personal reputation) more than anything else.

All the same, good luck to you.

PS I have and love 2 Scottish Folds (housecats).
 
I gave up on hunting a while back. It just wasn't my thing; at least the type of hunting I was doing. But, I did get to see what happens when sports hunting is severely restricted. First, the animal population grows far larger than the available land can support and dies off in mass from starvation and desease. I actually was caught by surprise when I went hiking through the area only to find large numbers of skeletal remains. Second, free ranging land that had been previously set aside by hunting clubs and other land owners, is quickly developed into farmland and suburban sprawl. So my suggestion to anyone who actually gives a hoot about these animals is to support hunting as much as they can. Sports hunting is very environmentally sensitive. The object of any sportman is to continue to enjoy his hobby over the long term, and that means taking care of the game.

n2s
 
I`m as pro-gun and pro-hunt as it gets.I`m just against killing cats of any kind and animals that one doesn`t normally eat.I really want to get to the bottom of this,why kill big cats?To practice marksmanship, there are ducks and deer.To hunt cats for the fur?There are a few dozen Siberian tiger left and they still hunt them since there are Russian degenerates that pay megabucks for mink coats for their whores(the same rich ....kidnap Russian kids from orphanages and sell them to underground whorehouses in the West and later for spareparts,a billion$$ business).So,if lion fur business makes your heart beat a little faster,believe me you don`t wanna go there.Give me one good reason why hunt them?If it`s for the thrill,play Russian roulette ,ride motorcycles or join USMC instead.
 
As a young man in the 1960’s I lived in an African country now known as Namibia.
It was one of the most sparsely populated countries on earth.
The main industries were cattle and sheep farming.
Because of the size of the farms the animals were allowed to run free.

My best friend, Ant (called ant because he was immensely strong for his size and a champion wrestler) lived alone on his farm.
It was a good two hours drive from any form of community.
Roads were not much more than two tracks and so washed out that one could put two wheels into the rut and let go of the steering – your truck would just follow the rut.
I visited Ant whenever I could as he was a bachelor and loved hunting.
A drop of whisky did not go astray either.

One problem the farmers in that part of the world faced was stock-loss from cheetahs.
They lived in inaccessible mountainous areas and came down into the grasslands for food.
Losing a couple of sheep per year was not too bad, but when the mother is teaching her cubs to hunt a pack is formed and the wholesale slaughter of sheep takes place.
I cannot count how many maimed lams and ewes I have had to shoot.

To keep the cheetah population within manageable numbers we had to resort to setting traps at waterholes.
On one round of trap inspections we saw that a full-grown cheetah had been caught.
We assumed that he was dead, as the trap seemed to have caught him by the neck and he looked died.
We stopped right next to him and Ant jumped out of the Jeep and grabbed it by the scruff of the neck, so as to release the trap’s jaw.
This is when all hell broke loose.
The cheetah had been caught when he stepped into the trap with his back paw and after a struggle must have fallen asleep, exhausted.

I do not know if you know cheetahs, but they are quite small at around 70 pounds or so.
They have a relatively small mouth, but razor sharp claws on all four feet.
They usually kill by latching onto their prey with their teeth, holding on with their front paws and than ripping them to shreds using predominately their back legs – slashing like a windmill.

When Ant picked up the cheetah it came up in full fight.
Because of his physical strength and good reflexes, Ant was able to grab the animal around the throat and hold it away from him.
With its one hind leg in the trap its manoeuvrability was somewhat hampered.
I can remember Ant screaming to me “don’t shoot, don’t shoot – kill it”.

Having had extensive training in a branch of the Special Forces, I was not totally dumbstruck with fear and I know how to use a knife.
In those days there were no “one hand knives” and I carried a large German made folder.
Somehow Ant had remained on his feet – pushing the cheetah’s head away from him.
The animal had his front claws slammed into Ant’s arms and ripping hell out of Ant’s chest and stomach with its one good hind leg.

I was able to gut the animal from chest bone all the way down.
Once it’s insides were on the ground beneath it, it bled to death pretty quickly.
Ant’s front was a mess, but except for the scars (which he became quite proud of in later years) he suffered no long-term effects.
Sadly I never kept the knife, only the memories.

This story happens to be true.
If you choose not to believe it – I do not really care.
Dirk
 
Gentlepersons following this thread:

All this chat and whatnot about dear-old Simba got me to pull down from my library (yes, as in bound pulp with ink-type, not digital) one of my favorite books "Last Horizons", by Peter Hathaway Capstick (c) 1988 St. Martin's Press.

For those unaware, Mr. Capstick has excellent credentials as a 20-year Professional Hunter, with stints as Game Warden in the former Rhodesia and Zambia. He is also a conservationist, as most sportsmen are. His understanding of wildlife and its relationship to humans is perhaps unparalleled from his vast experiences in hunting, wardening, conserving, and writing about them on all Continents.

Here is an excerpt from the one of Peter's articles on lions (not even about hunting them, just about their relationship with the human population in Africa in general). It's entitled: "Man-Eaters--They're Still Out There!", Peterson's Hunting 1986, by Peter Hathaway Capstick.

After he writes on for 3-4 pages about the variety of ways lions have, do, and continue to attack/maim/kill and menace the human population of Africa, he writes:

- "...That lions are still a huge toothy problem in some of the most sophisticated areas of Africa may well be borne out by the fact that the Natal Parks Board [S. Africa] alone, in only one of South Africa's vast provinces, had to shoot 109 lions for a variety of reasons in a four-year period...." [Note: this is being reported in 1986, and the reasons mostly-related to attacks on people and/or livestock].

- "...Lions are by no means the cringing, endangered felines represented by so many preservation oufits. They are in increasingly good supply in Africa (except, or course, should you be hunting them!) and continue to be one of the most dangerous animals on earth to confront...." [Note: I wonder if a certain forumite would experience any sudden changes of heart with regard to lion hunting would he have to live in close-proximity to so many dangerous lions? Hmmm, one cannot but wonder...]

- "...People will tell you, usually after having one well-placed shot at a reclining Simba, that they die easy. Well, I must have gotten mixed up with all the tough ones. I've seen them eat well-placed heavy-caliber slugs like nobody (including me) says in his latest book. Leopards, okay. But lions will chew your arse off with their last ounce of strength, which is not inconsiderable in the first place. Bear in mind that lions regularly eat live, angry Cape buffalo just about any time they feel like it, and those are the smaller females who mostly do the job anyway...." [Note: Gentlepersons, remember the previous post about mbogo (cape buffalo) being scary beasts--well lions eat them for lunch...literally. :) ]

- "...What is often forgotten is the massiveness of the chest muscles. They may be relatively light-bodied, but if you up and bugger one around in the thick stuff, you or your hunter just might come up short a couple of legs or a head....As long as he's alive and you can see him, you ought to be perforating him with everything you've got or can borrow. You don't need him in the thick stuff. Trust me....I really fear the lion."

As if we need another reason besides game management and harvesting to hunt lions--you can now also add protecting human life to the list.
 
Dirk-

I believe you. Your recount is not that different than the many stories told by the likes of Capstick, Ruark, etc.

BTW, those Special Forces you trained with in a previous life didn't happen to be the legendary Selous Scouts, were they?
 
I don`t have problems with killing a lion(or a human) in the prosess of defending your life.As for Africans being endangered by lions,aren`t they dying out by 10000 a day from AIDS and hunger?Don`t tell me a millioner goes halfway across the globe to shoot a freaking cat to protect a poor African guy.
 
My mother's uncle (don't know what relation that is to me) was eaten by a so-called tame lioness in the 1940's.
He had gotten the loiness as a new-born cub after the male had attacked the mother in a fight about food and killed her.
He hand-reared the cub and only fed it cooked meat in an attempt to keep the natural bloodlust at bay.
He had it for about 5 years and it was like a dog in their home on his remote farm.
Many newspapers wrote about it and came to take photos.

What happened to him is a very good example of the inborn killer instinct of lions.
He had just slaughtered a steer for the house and had a small cut to his hand.
It was handaged and had stopped bleeding.
He was sitting on the front stoop of the house with the "tame" lioness licking his hand.
She must have licked the bandage away and got the taste of fresh blood.
By the time the wife had run into the house, got the gun and shot the loiness - it was too late.
 
Ron, I don't talk about it much.
I have seen little children - a whole school full of them, where all the little girls were raped and the little boy's achilles tendions severed, so they were maimed for life.
Yet the bastids who did these things were hailed as "freedom fighters".

I am finding it very difficult to keep my cool with people who's sole life experiances seem to be based on TV propaganda.

It you have been there and done that, you are entitled to walk and talk.
If not - sure have an opinion, but do not get smart-arsed and insulting.

Take the everyday domestic cat.
It very rarely eats what it kills.
It maims and then plays with the dying victim.
Are kitty-cats just too cute and cuddly for words.
 
In Russia there was a family of famous circus lion-tamers.They kept several lions in their apartment,they slept with the kids,purrrrrrrrr etc.One fine day,the lions ate everybody in the apartment,end of story.
 
I know about some things that go around in Africa including "necklacing" where the "freedom fighters" put gasolin-soaked tires on people`s necks,tie their hands with wire and set them on fire.This will show you that I don`t get my info from TV.PS.No matter how you put it,hunting lions sucks,purrrrrr.
 
JG-

At the risk of actually having a rational discourse, I will ask of you three things before addressing you again:

1) Please cease your stereotyping of all hunters as either machismo-challenged wealthy fools, or Russian criminal-types. Nothing can be farther from the truth--and it is insulting to myself and fellow sportsmen who are neither of the above. Actually, refrain from any stereotyping at all (and I will attempt to restrain myself in similar fashion).

2) Refrain from projecting your personal/cultural animal consumption choices on the rest of the world or anyone else for that matter.

3) Answer one question with a simple "yes" or "no". Do you or do you not believe in modern concepts of game management? If answer is "NO", please explain how a self-admitted lion lover would propose to sustain the lion population and habitat without those resources generated by the licensed-hunting of game management.

Follow these simple guidelines, and we can "tawk" as they say in your neck of the woods.
 
Ron mate - don't even bother.
There are none as deaf as those who will not listen.

The sad part is that that in times of danger or war it comes down to people like you and I to protect the simple minded from harm and ensure their right to spread their ill informed opinions and influence a whole new generation.
Unfortunately we cannot protect them from themselves.

Off to the kitchen for another cup of real coffee with full-cream milk.
:D
 
Look guys,I admit I don`t know $hit about hunting,never wanted to hunt,but don`t have problems with hunting tasty animals.Do you mean that rich hunters pay big $$ for the right to hunt lions and the money then goes for the care of remaining lions,maintaining populations etc?Correct me if I`m wrong.If I understood correctly,it`s still a sad situation,if a guy is rich enough that he can pay big $$ for one shot at a lion and money goes to care for the wildlife,why not just give the money and shoot some beer cans.I know this sounds awfully wimpy,straight out of Opra or Rosie O`Dumbell.Pat Buchanan in his new book "Death Of the West" says that a conservative person should care for nature,not destroy it.So our children may see some lions in person and not on pictures.As for machismo aspect of hunting,I recently heard an interview of a hitman(morals aside,this is as macho an occupation as it goes) and he said that he would never kill an animal in his life,or hunt etc.
 
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