Do we want to keep our knives? Blade’s editorial and Customs.

[Don Rearic]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODE 3:
Leo
No, I'm NOT saying Horiuchi was ordered to shoot Vicki Weaver. That would be absurd.
What I'm trying to point out is that Horiuchi was only there because his superiors & his JOB required him to be there. He was NOT there just to play "shoot 'em up" with the Weaver clan[1]
What happened to Vicki weaver was unfortunate,[2] and should not have happened. Keep in mind...if randy Weaver would have surrendered when he was asked to, Vicki would still be alive[3], and the whole Ruby Ridge debacle would never have happened. Randy Weaver stated that the Feds would not take him alive[4], thereby jeapordizing his entire family because he was stupid.
I said I didn't want to rehash this ****, and I'm now done.

I guess my whole point of this is not all LEO's are bad, and maybe, just maybe, they were following orders. This is especially true for ANY Federal agency. Most local & state LEO's have more leeway in how they handle the laws they have to enforce. The Federal Agents do not have the same leeway.[5]</font>

I wanted to simply fade out of this Thread, but like a moth to flame, I feel the need to post.

I'm sickened by this Post.

Piece by piece;

[1] Yes, his "JOB" required him to be there. No, his "JOB" did not require him to follow an illegal order. Even the FBI said the "Rules of Engagement" were un-Constitutional. The "Rules of Engagement" were that of a Sniper at war and not one in a Civilian Police Action. He would not have been "fired" had he showed restraint.

[2] Oh? How nice of you...what happened to Vicki Weaver was "unfortunate." I would imagine that we can take that opinion to its' logical conclusion and say that had the infant been hit in the face with that round of 7.62X51mm ammunition, that too would have been, "unfortunate." I question how much you even know about this case. Someone committed an act of Perjury by saying they were unaware that Mrs. Weaver was in the position she was in, although later there was a piece of Hotel Stationary that clearly showed a hand drawing by the same person to the contrary.

[3] Are you aware that Randy Weaver was informed he would lose his property if he lost his case against the Government? He was told that by some Part-Time "Assistant" Prosecutor or some such rot. It was incorrect information. Also, Weaver was given the wrong Court Date. The Government more or less knew that because of that, the case was going to be a washout. I can fully understand Weaver's lack of trust in this matter.

[4] Even if Weaver did say that, did his 14 year old Son Sammy who was shot in the back say that? How about Vicki Weaver? Would it make any difference to you?

[5] "Leeway?" I see, so, Agents of a State, County, City or the Federal Government should first look at their career ending and that wonderful pension before they actually refuse to participate in an illegal action? That's all I see in your post. The same old, "Cover your ass game."

The original product of this was an Investigation where a Paid Informant was used, and it was found to be entrapment. That is the basis of the complaint. Corruption. No Law Enforcement Agency has the right nor the duty to entice you into committing a crime, apparently you do not know about the case or you are just ignoring the basic concept of Justice that is supposed to be the Law of the Land here.

All of that having been said, not all BATF, FBI, U.S. Marshals, WHATEVER AGENCY'S Agents are corrupt, bad, act in an illegal manner, etc., etc., ad inifinitum. That is the caveat. However, your defense of those that acted in an illegal manner is not only weak and disturbing. It is simply disgusting.

 

[Jim March]

Code 3: I was going to respond in detail, but Don and others have pretty much covered the Weaver thing. The rules of engagement were illegal, and Randy wasn't backing down because it was obvious from multiple clues he was dealing with crooks.

But when you talk about CCW, well, I'm going to have to fill you in.

See, my Sheriff (Warren Rupf of Contra Costa County) has voluntarily decided to eliminate all permit issuance to lower and middle income areas with high minority populations. Then he decided to issue permits to rich campaign contributors who listed as their good cause, a need to "travel through" the same areas Rupf blanket-disarmed via agreements with the PD Chiefs that were illegal under Penal Code 12050 *and* formed a criminal conspiracy to violate civil rights under color of authority.

So lemme get this straight: because the legislature created a law in 1923 that deliberately allowed these abuses and many, MANY others to flourish, that Rupf isn't responsible? He "couldn't help himself"?

Bullpoop.

I've got a better idea. I'm hauling his butt in front of a Federal Judge and we'll see if his crap flies.

Jim

 

[Mike G]

Jim

I truly wish you luck, but it sounds like your Sheriff needs to be ousted from office, and someone who will be fair elected to replace him.

Don,

The whole Ruby Ridge debacle made me sick. I am NOT defending ANYONE involved in that mess. The point I was trying to make is that EVERYONE there needed to accept some personal responsibility for their actions.
Horiuchi very easily could have told his superiors that he wasn't going to shoot, and they would have just found someone who would.
The second point is that instead of blaming the LEO's who were in the field, blame their superiors. Horiuchi and his team would NOT have been there if their superiors didn't issue orders.
I am truly saddened by what happened there.
I in no way, shape or form condone what went on at Ruby Ridge.

I'm done discussing this subject.

 

[dogboye]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODE 3:
you obviously don't have a clue what the LEO's have to follow. It's like the military, you either follow orders, or you're in deep ****. </font>

Hmmm... and you are completely released from any responsibility for personal judgement or responsibility? I doubt that. Not with the military guys that I work with every day. They are encouraged to think; good thing, too, since they are in control of machines worth many millions of dollars, that can easily kill a town by mistake.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODE 3:
Just imagine if your boss came up to you, told you to do something you totally disagreed with...you expressed your disagreement..and he told you to do it, or kiss your career, retirement, health insurance, and livelihood goodbye. What would YOU do?</font>

My boss? My job? My organization? Well, assuming that I had either a professional or moral reason for my disagreement, I'd respectfully tell him to get someone else to do it. The final judgement for what I do is me. I'm the one who has to look at myself in the mirror. And in my organization, I am held responsible for my actions regardless of what my supervisor "orders" me to do.

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iktomi

 

[Mike G]

I do agree it is the Individual's responsibility to determine if what he or she is doing is morally and ethically correct.
I did state that people need to take responsibility for their own actions. I'm merely trying to state that MAYBE Horiuchi is the type of person who follows orders without question, because he is a "good soldier". he has to accept some responsibility for what he did, yes. However, his superiors, AND randy Weaver, also need to accept some responsibility for that mess. You cannot blame one person for that mess. Blame ALL parties involved (adults, not the innocent children).

I originally stated my comments because Horiuchi was being blamed by Leo as the ONLY person responsible for that mess. He is indeed responsible in part, but so are his superiors, AND Randy Weaver.

I'm NOT going to reply any more to this thread. Everyone seems to think I'm standing up for Horiuchi. I am NOT.




[This message has been edited by CODE 3 (edited 12-11-2000).]

 

[Leo Daher]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CODE 3:

I originally stated my comments because Horiuchi was being blamed by Leo as the ONLY person responsible for that mess. He is indeed responsible in part, but so are his superiors, AND Randy Weaver.

[This message has been edited by CODE 3 (edited 12-11-2000).]</font>

If you go back to my posts, you'll see I've never said such a thing. In fact, I believe the number one culprit to be the power-hungry colectivists who created the political climate responsible for tragedies such as Waco and Ruby Ridge.
That being said, I also believe you can never downplay the role of individual responsibility. It was Horiuchi who had Vicki Weaver in his sights, and it was him who pulled the trigger and blew her head off. There's no way he shouldn't be accountable for that, regardless of what some judge might say.

Regards,

Leo Daher



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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

 

[Jim March]

Code 3: you may not be standing up for Lon, but you DID stand up for the Judge who declared that he shouldn't face state charges. Whether or not he voluntarily obeyed orders that added up to murder should have been for a jury to decide.

As to my Sheriff: the problem is, local media won't publish the evidence that the cops they've supported becuase of their "anti gun" stance are actually pro-corruption. That makes it hard to throw the barsterds out. This isn't any sort of joke or "conspiracy theory", I've personally handed local media copies of the Colafrancesco papers where a drunk bragged about paying off a Sheriff for a permit. Nobody published.

So about all that's left is court.

Jim

 

[Classified00]

This thread has certainly sparked alot of passion.
I'm enjoying the varied opinions on 'the subject' in general.
To the original point of the post:
Sometimes it's not THAT you criticize, but HOW you criticize wrong doing that matters.
Brent...