Does anyone use Arkansas stones without oil.

Q

Quy4n8

Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Messages
659
I remember reading somewhere that Arkansas stones can be used without lubricant if they are new and oil has never been used on them. I have a white and a black stone I bought years ago from A.G. Russell. I have used oil on the white stone, but I have never used the black one, just never could get my knives sharp enough to even try to use the black one. My sharpening skill have gotten better and i would like to use the black, but if it can be used without oil, I would certainly prefer that. Does anyone have experience with this? Also, is there a way to clean the white stone so that it can now be used without oil? Thanks for any input or thoughts.

Richard
 
Richard Sommer said:
I remember reading somewhere that Arkansas stones can be used without lubricant if they are new and oil has never been used on them. I have a white and a black stone I bought years ago from A.G. Russell. I have used oil on the white stone, but I have never used the black one, just never could get my knives sharp enough to even try to use the black one. My sharpening skill have gotten better and i would like to use the black, but if it can be used without oil, I would certainly prefer that. Does anyone have experience with this? Also, is there a way to clean the white stone so that it can now be used without oil? Thanks for any input or thoughts.

Richard
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Ok, I myself don't freehand sharpen, but I think I can help you.

Oil only takes friction away sharpening, actually making the sharpening process slower...

The black should be good to go without oil. Just make sure to never use oil on it, and you won't have to worry about it.

I beleive if you put the white stone in water and then boil it for a very short while it should take all the oil and metal bits out.

Before you try this though, let someone who does know double check if I'm right or not. ;)
-Kevin
 
Alvin on rec.knives has baked the stones to remove the oil, google for more info.

-Cliff
 
Morgoth412 said:
Ok, I myself don't freehand sharpen, but I think I can help you.

Oil only takes friction away sharpening, actually making the sharpening process slower...

The black should be good to go without oil. Just make sure to never use oil on it, and you won't have to worry about it.

I beleive if you put the white stone in water and then boil it for a very short while it should take all the oil and metal bits out.

Before you try this though, let someone who does know double check if I'm right or not. ;)
-Kevin
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Morgoth 412 is right. The function of the oil is to reduce friction. You can certainly use water if no oil has been used on the stone, and I have boiled arkansas stones in water to remove the oil. It certainly does remove a lot of the oil, if not 100%. In any event, stones should really be cleaned relatively soon after use, since waiting can give all the particales a chance to really "gunk up the stone".

Anyway, yes, sharpening a knife aon an arkansas stone with water as the lubricant works just fine.
 
shaldag said:
Morgoth 412 is right. The function of the oil is to reduce friction. You can certainly use water if no oil has been used on the stone, and I have boiled arkansas stones in water to remove the oil. It certainly does remove a lot of the oil, if not 100%. In any event, stones should really be cleaned relatively soon after use, since waiting can give all the particales a chance to really "gunk up the stone".

Anyway, yes, sharpening a knife aon an arkansas stone with water as the lubricant works just fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirmation Shaldag.
-Kevin :)
 
To go with the previous question, why should I lubricate the stone? If I am trying to remove metal, wouldn't it be faster to do it dry? I always understood that the oil was there to "float" away the steel particles, not sure this makes sense since metal is heavier than steel. Maybe someone here can enlighten me. Thanks again.

Richard
 
Hello
According to John Juranitch oil, water ... that are used as lubricant, only floats particles, not removing them, and therefore acts desharpening!
I've tryed it, and IMHO, I think he is right.
All my hand-stone, incl. Lansky are now 'dry'.
(If you use a Tormek or equal, drop a magnet in the waterbath to contain the metalparticles.)
Erik
 
The only way I sharpen knives is freehand and the oil works at keeping the surface of the stone from clogging up with metal particles. Once the stone surface clogs up it is pretty well useless for sharpening, and it will clog up quickly.

Even though steel is heavier than oil, such small particles will stay suspended in the oil for quite awhile before they settle to the bottom.
 
Another thing, don't use too much oil. Just enough to give a thin coating of oil between the stone and the blade. If you use too much oil the blade will tend to glide over the surface of the stone.
 
It isn't necessarily true that honing oil produces a significant lubricating effect that slows down sharpening. The reason you use oil -- or kerosene, water, or whatever else -- is to a) prevent metal "swarf" from clogging the stone, and b) to reduce the amount of wear on the stone itself.

If you use too heavy or viscous an oil on a stone, then certainly abrasive action can be reduced. But heavy oils aren't really necessary. Kerosene works very well for fine India stones, and mixing a small amount of mineral oil with kerosene works well for soft Arkansas (or so I'm told; I haven't used Arkansas stones for many years.) The net effect of using a proper honing fluid -- a better term than oil, IMO -- is that your stone doesn't tend to load up, and so keeps cutting more efficiently over time, plus you can use more pressure than you could dry without producing so much wear or clogging of the stone.

Of course, if you have a stone that doesn't tend to clog with swarf when used dry, or washes out OK, then that reason for using honing fluid doesn't matter. But your stone may still be wearing much more quickly if you use it dry, and if it's a quality translucent or hard Arkansas stone, there can be a bit of an investment at stake.

Finally, here's something to try if you have any doubts: cut four pieces of steel from some unfinished stock. Take four pieces of wet-dry abrasive paper, 200-600 grit, depending upon how rough the steel is you'll be working. Leave one piece of paper dry, the second one wetted with water, the third with kerosene, and the fourth with a good, commercial cutting/tapping fluid such as Cool Tool II. You'll notice some big differences in how fast the different sheets cut, the uniformity of finish they produce, and how long they last. And you'll find that lubrication isn't the real story behind using honing fluid.

Dave
 
I've used Arkansas stones for years...have many different sizes in all the different grades. I have never used any liquid (oil or other) on them when sharpening a knife blade. I wash them occasionally with soap and water which works fine to remove the metal deposits.

No arguement I've ever heard for using oil has ever made any sense.

The black stone will put a wicked finishing edge on your knife.
 
I think people are very confused about what purpose oil serves on a honing stone. It is just the opposite of what people are saying. Oil is not used as a lubricant. It is not used to prevent hone breakdown, it is used to increase hone breakdown! Hone breakdown is a critical part of preserving the cutting power of any hone except a diamond-coated hone. The oil helps the stone to break down faster which helps to release trapped metal and expose sharp fresh abrasive grit. Water stones break down very fast by simply using water. Many artificial hones break down relatively easily either dry, wet with water, or wet with oil. Arkansas stones hardly break down at all and therefore cut rather slowly. You can clean out the surface of the hone by scrubbing with a cleanser, but without oil you still return to a rather slick hone. If you are not going to use oil you might want to periodically scrub the stone with a very hard powdered abrasive.

Abrasive paper is different than a natural stone. Abrasive paper consists of free-standing particles on a nonabrasive backing (like a diamond hone). The grains don't stick together very well. You lubricate Wet-or-Dry paper to reduce loading and to loosen the tallest abrasive grains. This achieves a smoother finish. With a natural stone the surface grit is tightly bound together with neighboring grit. It is much more resistant to break down. The natural grit does not typically have as large a proportion of sharp grains as the abrasive paper. There is more sharp grit below the surface. A fast wearing hone is a sharp hone. Fast wearing abrasive paper looses its cutting power rapidly.

Ignore Juranich, anyone who has used oil stones knows that you get an excellent edge that way. The effectiveness of Japanese water stones disproves his whole notion. Did you know that straight razors are honed with water stones when they are manufactured? A slurry on a hone helps. I hear that people have been unable to replicate his results.
 
Ignore Juranich
Click to expand...
Have you tryed it 'his' way?
Think, lots of people, tryed dull belts for polishing?
What to prevent is 'old' metal rubbing against the metal?
Erik
 
There are stones and there are stones. The original post referred to Arkansas stones. The use of oil is to stop the stone from clogging up with waste metal - use a white arkansas stone without oil and it will turn grey/black with metal deposits which then have to be cleaned. I have found that you definately need oil with the coarser stones (only a little) and I would use oil on all the grades. It is hard to tell if a black stone is clogged. With Water Stones and Synthetic stones when water/oil is used a slurry is created and this slurry consists of minute particles of the stone breaking away mixed with metal. In my experience with the coarser stones when defining your edge this slurry actually inhibits the sharpening process - with finer stones when seeking to polish the edge it may help.

Now regarding Juranvitch's method - with his stones and in fact most synthetic stones he is correct. Oil, water etc will slow down the sharpening process esp. on the coarser stones. I have used the "Razor Edge" stones for many years and have sharpened hundreds if not thousands of knives on them - dry they are superior to most stones. I find water stones good but not economical - I love using Arkansas stones with oil as it just seems to be the thing to do maybe there is something primitive in the way the sharpening process comes together with oil on a good stone. But, they are messy and slower. As far as stones go for the professional when speed is essential, economics are crucial and it is necessary to keep a clean environment - I suggest you use "Razor Edge" stones. For those who work in the food preparation industry (where health regulations allow) the water stone kept in a container of water is the the quickest method esp. with fine fillet knives or the like.
 
I was issued a white arkansas stone at my first permant duty base in 66 and I am still using it DRY. I use Bartenders Helper to clean both my arkansas stone and my ceramic sticks it is quite a bit more aggressive than say comet but rinse it thoroughly it can be corrosive if left in contact with certain materials. I do use sharpening oil with my lansky sharpener except for the diamond surface and the ceramic serrated tools
 
"Razor Edge" are the stones sold by Juranvitch (did I spell that right) - they are synthetic and come in coarse and fine. The coarse one is cleaned with a brush whilst the fine one can be washed in water and detergent. They come in 6" and 8" lengths - I find the fine stone esp. good for the final sharpening or for touching up edges. I also like their folding pocket steel.
 
I tried using my Arkansas stones dry when I got 'em. They clogged up quick and it was more trouble cleaning them than it was worth. So, I decided to pay attention to what the sellers of these stones had to say: Hall's, Dan's, HandAmerican, Lee Valley, The Museum of Woodworking, and Traditional Woodworker. Ok, they're selling oil, so you have a right to be skeptical. However, I also thought about what the generations of old timers before me did - use oil on oilstones - and I figured maybe they weren't all wrong for all that time. So I tried using oil, and I found that it really helped me. It does keep the pores of the stone clear, and lets it keep cutting. The black arkansas stone is so dense that it hardly takes any oil at all, so it's not messy. And clean-up is easy, just add a few more drops, swirl it around with your finger, and wipe it clean. All the swarf comes off with the oil.

Anyway, there's no harm in trying your stones dry. You can always use oil after you get tired of clogging and cleaning them. ;)
 
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