Does PSRK make Ganzo?

Hackenslash said:
Which vendor on the supporting vendors list sells Ganzo?


S SmartCastle7 , welcome to Blade Forums and thanks for sharing your question. You picked a very divisive topic to introduce yourself to the community, but I think you deserve the best answers that we can offer.

Every knife in the picture above is a rip-off of another knife...
from left to right...Benchmade Snody H&K 14210, Benchmade 950 Rift, Benchmade 741 Onslaught, Benchmade 860 Bedlam, Lionsteel SR2 for the next two knives, Ontario Rat Model 1 and Spyderco PM2.

It's stuff like this that makes true knife enthusiasts loathe Ganzo. Stolen designs and features hurt the entire knife industry and as knife knuts we hate to see the industry suffer due to these cloner companies. Yes, you have reason to be concerned about getting a "genuine" Ganzo because the cloners are now cloning the cloners. The damage cloners do to legit knife makers is NOT up for debate. The argument about not being able to afford the real thing doesn't hold water either. True, a genuine Benchmade 950 might be out of the price-comfort range for many knife buyers, but there are some great choices available in inexpensive, original knives. Many have been named already in this thread.

For within a few $ of a Ganzo you could get:
Kizer Tangram (the Sante Fe in particular is an awesome knife)
Ontario Rat Model 1 or Model 2 in AUS8 steel
Some of the Chinese produced Kershaws (I'd ask about a particular knife that you may have interest in because these can be hit or miss)
Honey Badger (I don't see much talk of them here but I think they're an incredible knife for the money. They originate out of South Africa but I doubt they're actually made there)

For the price of 2 Ganzos you could get:
WE Civivi
RealSteel (I recommend the H6-S1. Although RS shares a common ancestry with SanRenMu I think enough distance has passed to separate them from SRM's cloner past)
Ruike (As I understand it, not related to SanRenMu but a derivative of the group that made Factor knives...who have a cloner past)
Kizer Vanguard
Bestech budget line
Steel Will
Ontario RATs in D2 steel

There's many more that I can't remember off the top of my head. This is a renaissance time for high quality, high value knives. There are so many great choices, there's no excuse to buy a clone, copy, homage, rip-off when you can support knife design/development/production and buy an original. And get a warranty. And get materials you know to be as advertised. And deal with an authorized reseller who'll stand behind what they sell. Hopefully you get the drift. There's no reason to buy from a cloner and too many reasons to NOT buy from a cloner.

Good luck finding great knives!
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I don't remember which one, but a supporting vendor sold some ganzo autos like 4 models that are not clones. While not a good look to be selling knives from a cloner company, it is a poor argument that needler is trying to make in support of clones. As usual, it doesn't hold water.
 
craytab said:
I don't remember which one, but a supporting vendor sold some ganzo autos like 4 models that are not clones. While not a good look to be selling knives from a cloner company, it is a poor argument that needler is trying to make in support of clones. As usual, it doesn't hold water.
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Oh, I think that was Blade Play which isn't actually a supporting vendor but they're a side company of BladeHQ which is. Yeah, I all I've seen there are some of the Ganzo auto knives which (I think) are original designs.

Yeah, so a straw man argument and a weak one at that :D
 
Hackenslash said:
Which vendor on the supporting vendors list sells Ganzo?


S SmartCastle7 , welcome to Blade Forums and thanks for sharing your question. You picked a very divisive topic to introduce yourself to the community, but I think you deserve the best answers that we can offer.

Every knife in the picture above is a rip-off of another knife...
from left to right...Benchmade Snody H&K 14210, Benchmade 950 Rift, Benchmade 741 Onslaught, Benchmade 860 Bedlam, Lionsteel SR2 for the next two knives, Ontario Rat Model 1 and Spyderco PM2.

It's stuff like this that makes true knife enthusiasts loathe Ganzo. Stolen designs and features hurt the entire knife industry and as knife knuts we hate to see the industry suffer due to these cloner companies. Yes, you have reason to be concerned about getting a "genuine" Ganzo because the cloners are now cloning the cloners. The damage cloners do to legit knife makers is NOT up for debate. The argument about not being able to afford the real thing doesn't hold water either. True, a genuine Benchmade 950 might be out of the price-comfort range for many knife buyers, but there are some great choices available in inexpensive, original knives. Many have been named already in this thread.

For within a few $ of a Ganzo you could get:
Kizer Tangram (the Sante Fe in particular is an awesome knife)
Ontario Rat Model 1 or Model 2 in AUS8 steel
Some of the Chinese produced Kershaws (I'd ask about a particular knife that you may have interest in because these can be hit or miss)
Honey Badger (I don't see much talk of them here but I think they're an incredible knife for the money. They originate out of South Africa but I doubt they're actually made there)

For the price of 2 Ganzos you could get:
WE Civivi
RealSteel (I recommend the H6-S1. Although RS shares a common ancestry with SanRenMu I think enough distance has passed to separate them from SRM's cloner past)
Ruike (As I understand it, not related to SanRenMu but a derivative of the group that made Factor knives...who have a cloner past)
Kizer Vanguard
Bestech budget line
Steel Will
Ontario RATs in D2 steel

There's many more that I can't remember off the top of my head. This is a renaissance time for high quality, high value knives. There are so many great choices, there's no excuse to buy a clone, copy, homage, rip-off when you can support knife design/development/production and buy an original. And get a warranty. And get materials you know to be as advertised. And deal with an authorized reseller who'll stand behind what they sell. Hopefully you get the drift. There's no reason to buy from a cloner and too many reasons to NOT buy from a cloner.

Good luck finding great knives!
Click to expand...

I hadn’t heard of Honey Badger knives so I looked them up. Unfortunately I found that they have one knife that is using the Emerson wave which isn’t just a clone of an unpatentable design but is actually a patented feature.

Too bad I might have tried one otherwise.
 
Lapedog said:
I hadn’t heard of Honey Badger knives so I looked them up. Unfortunately I found that they have one knife that is using the Emerson wave which isn’t just a clone of an unpatentable design but is actually a patented feature.

Too bad I might have tried one otherwise.
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Wow, thanks for sharing that. I'm not into a wave opening feature so I never noticed that they had one. I had noticed that the opening hole in one of their knives is decidedly not round so I thought they were good to go. I guess I better research this company more before recommending them again.

EDIT: Weird, I can find pictures of the Honey Badger Opener (the knife with a wave feature) but they appear to only be available in New Zealand and the shape is different from a typical Emerson Wave...

EDIT/EDIT: It looks like the patent on the Wave is expired in 2017, what persists is the Trademark...so if a company makes a wave opener that's different in shape and appearance, wouldn't that be ok? That's why hole openers are OK so long as they aren't round. https://knifenews.com/emerson-wave-trademark/

I think Honey Badger knives is OK on this.
 
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Hackenslash said:
Wow, thanks for sharing that. I'm not into a wave opening feature so I never noticed that they had one. I had noticed that the opening hole in one of their knives is decidedly not round so I thought they were good to go. I guess I better research this company more before recommending them again.
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I’m not sure that there is necessarily any legal thing Emerson can do. Their patent probably is a US patent only. These knives were designed in South Africa and then produced in China.

I am not sure if there are American vendors selling the waved versions. And if an American citizen orders one from out of country I am not sure if patent law was violated anywhere.

Still they certainly aren’t even giving credit.
 
Lapedog said:
I’m not sure that there is necessarily any legal thing Emerson can do. Their patent probably is a US patent only. These knives were designed in South Africa and then produced in China.

I am not sure if there are American vendors selling the waved versions. And if an American citizen orders one from out of country I am not sure if patent law was violated anywhere.

Still they certainly aren’t even giving credit.
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I edited in my answer to you in my previous post. The Emerson patent is expired, all that remains is a Trademark. So long as companies make a "wave" feature without identical shape and structure, they should be fine. That's why any company can use a hole in the blade to serve as an opener, it just can't be round.

https://knifenews.com/emerson-wave-trademark/

Honey Badger looks to be OK with what they're doing.
 
Hackenslash said:
I edited in my answer to you in my previous post. The Emerson patent is expired, all that remains is a Trademark. So long as companies make a "wave" feature without identical shape and structure, they should be fine. That's why any company can use a hole in the blade to serve as an opener, it just can't be round.

https://knifenews.com/emerson-wave-trademark/

Honey Badger looks to be OK with what they're doing.
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Looks like you’re right. I’m not sure how similar the wave feature has to be in order to violate the trademark. My understanding is that when the patent expires other companies can now use an identical wave but cannot call it “the wave.” Just like other companies can now use the axis lock but cannot call it “the axis lock.”

I’m not sure about any of this though. I am not a patent lawyer.
 
craytab said:
Oh, I read what you said. Just pointing out the facts.
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Cool. Just being clear. Honestly I didn't know anything about all of this "cloned knife" stuff when I bought the thing. I had no idea of who designed what. I wanted a cheap knife that I could use at work and not GAF if it got destroyed or lost. I lose stuff (I have a Kershaw Blur and a CRKT that are missing right now - I think they are in the house somewhere).

Lapedog said:
I’m not sure that there is necessarily any legal thing Emerson can do. Their patent probably is a US patent only. These knives were designed in South Africa and then produced in China.

I am not sure if there are American vendors selling the waved versions. And if an American citizen orders one from out of country I am not sure if patent law was violated anywhere.

Still they certainly aren’t even giving credit.
Click to expand...

That's not Chinese companies' dirtiest trick.

What at least one has done is taken a machine that was patented in the US and build in China, and then PATENTED IT IN CHINA! Now if the company that DEVELOPED that machine wants to sell it in China, they have to pay the company that they originally paid to make the damn thing.

Mind bottling.
 
T Abell said:
Cool. Just being clear. Honestly I didn't know anything about all of this "cloned knife" stuff when I bought the thing. I had no idea of who designed what. I wanted a cheap knife that I could use at work and not GAF if it got destroyed or lost. I lose stuff (I have a Kershaw Blur and a CRKT that are missing right now - I think they are in the house somewhere).



That's not Chinese companies' dirtiest trick.

What at least one has done is taken a machine that was patented in the US and build in China, and then PATENTED IT IN CHINA! Now if the company that DEVELOPED that machine wants to sell it in China, they have to pay the company that they originally paid to make the damn thing.

Mind bottling.
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And that is why you can come here and learn the truth about knife cloning:thumbsup:
 
craytab said:
And that is why you can come here and learn the truth about knife cloning:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

True. The post by Hackenslash about quality knives for good value was especially eye-opening.

Lapedog said:
Looks like you’re right. I’m not sure how similar the wave feature has to be in order to violate the trademark. My understanding is that when the patent expires other companies can now use an identical wave but cannot call it “the wave.” Just like other companies can now use the axis lock but cannot call it “the axis lock.”

I’m not sure about any of this though. I am not a patent lawyer.
Click to expand...

I saw that feature on something recently but had no idea what it was or what it was for.
 
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Lapedog said:
Looks like you’re right. I’m not sure how similar the wave feature has to be in order to violate the trademark. My understanding is that when the patent expires other companies can now use an identical wave but cannot call it “the wave.” Just like other companies can now use the axis lock but cannot call it “the axis lock.”

I’m not sure about any of this though. I am not a patent lawyer.
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It depends on what was trademarked, the name "wave" or the shape of the wave device.

My guess is just the name. For the following reason --

One of the interesting aspects of trademark law is that you are legally required to protect it. Taking the attitude that "well, it's not really hurting me" or "it's too much trouble" or "someone else will just steal the trademark anyway" is asking to have the trademark voided. This is my guess why Spyderco has sued a few corporations in the last few years, including Ebay. They never thought that they would stop the trademark infringement, they just needed to take the active steps required by trademark law to protect it.

Let's say you clone a Spyderco Police 1 model. NO part of that knife is legally under PATENT -- not in the U.S., not internationally. However, the Spyder Hole IS under TRADEMARK. Forever. As long as Spyderco takes measures to protect it.

That's why the cloner argument that "no one thinks that they are buying a Spyderco" falls apart. In the eyes of the law, if you put a round hole on the blade of your knife you are claiming that you are selling a Spyderco. By that same law, if Spyderco allows that trademark infringement to pass without an attenpt to protect it, that can void their trademark. It's also why Cold Steel's San Mai III trademark letters were non-frivolous. They didn't have to win anything, they just needed to take steps to protect.

Tl;dr: they probably only trademarked the name "wave" because we haven't seen them do anything about the different wave devices out there.
 
SpySmasher said:
It depends on what was trademarked, the name "wave" or the shape of the wave device.

My guess is just the name. For the following reason --

One of the interesting aspects of trademark law is that you are legally required to protect it. Taking the attitude that "well, it's not really hurting me" or "it's too much trouble" or "someone else will just steal the trademark anyway" is asking to have the trademark voided. This is my guess why Spyderco has sued a few corporations in the last few years, including Ebay. They never thought that they would stop the trademark infringement, they just needed to take the active steps required by trademark law to protect it.

Let's say you clone a Spyderco Police 1 model. NO part of that knife is legally under PATENT -- not in the U.S., not internationally. However, the Spyder Hole IS under TRADEMARK. Forever. As long as Spyderco takes measures to protect it.

That's why the cloner argument that "no one thinks that they are buying a Spyderco" falls apart. In the eyes of the law, if you put a round hole on the blade of your knife you are claiming that you are selling a Spyderco. By that same law, if Spyderco allows that trademark infringement to pass without an attenpt to protect it, that can void their trademark. It's also why Cold Steel's San Mai III trademark letters were non-frivolous. They didn't have to win anything, they just needed to take steps to protect.

Tl;dr: they probably only trademarked the name "wave" because we haven't seen them do anything about the different wave devices out there.
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Emerson has only ever claimed patent over specifically a wave or hook shaped piece of metal on the spine which is part of the blade. So other wave devices like thumb plates or the Pikal’s peg wave or the spine featurs that are not actually hooked shaped like the Bram Frank kinetic opener are not violations.

The Spyderco Endura’s wave feature even though not identical to the Emerson wave would have fallen under the purview of that patent when it was active. Spyderco of course licensed the wave from Emerson.
 
Lapedog said:
Emerson has only ever claimed patent over specifically a wave or hook shaped piece of metal on the spine which is part of the blade. So other wave devices like thumb plates or the Pikal’s peg wave or the spine featurs that are not actually hooked shaped like the Bram Frank kinetic opener are not violations.

The Spyderco Endura’s wave feature even though not identical to the Emerson wave would have fallen under the purview of that patent when it was active. Spyderco of course licensed the wave from Emerson.
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I was responding to the issue of the trademark issued in 2016, not the patent.

I decided to do a trademark search and it turns out that I was wrong -- Emerson indeed filed a trademark for the actual feature, not the name. It's attached below. The dotted bits (the rest of the knife) are not included in the trademark.

Emerson_Wave_Trademark.jpg
 
craytab said:
I don't remember which one, but a supporting vendor sold some ganzo autos like 4 models that are not clones. While not a good look to be selling knives from a cloner company, it is a poor argument that needler is trying to make in support of clones. As usual, it doesn't hold water.
Click to expand...

BladeHQ, Blade play aka grindworx now. They still have Ganzo's for sale and still listed as a paid dealer.

I'm not for supporting clones when there is blatant copyright infringement.
My point is to show the irony to the community. The site has no problem taking their money.

If you do business with the devil don't get upset when people post the goods here and want to discuss them here. Their buying them from paid dealers on here.
 
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SpySmasher said:
I was responding to the issue of the trademark issued in 2016, not the patent.

I decided to do a trademark search and it turns out that I was wrong -- Emerson indeed filed a trademark for the actual feature, not the name. It's attached below. The dotted bits (the rest of the knife) are not included in the trademark.

Emerson_Wave_Trademark.jpg
Click to expand...

I believe that Leatherman has a registered trademark for the word "wave".
 
needler420 said:
BladeHQ, Blade play aka grindworx now. They still have Ganzo's for sale and still listed as a paid dealer.

I'm not for supporting clones when there is blatant copyright infringement.
My point is to show the irony to the community. The site has no problem taking their money.

If you do business with the devil don't get upset when people post the goods here and want to discuss them here. Their buying them from paid dealers on here.
Click to expand...
I do realize what your point was.
 
Blacplastik said:
That China D2.
So many knives now in this steel from China who knows what mystery steel it is.
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Apparently someone tested the d2 at 62hrc.a whole mark above what d2s highest hrc is listed. This means they are not properly heat treating in my eyes. Probably not even using cryo or tempering correctly. It's sure to be brittle and chippy

Its also a clone of another Chinese brand knife so it is indeed a clone of a other knife.

Don't support ganzo or other cloners and hell to the no don't support dhgate or other bs sites that just keep cloning.
 
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